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  • Results 1 to 8 of 8

    Thread: They been on the back burner for a while:)

    1. #1
      Orlando is offline Senior Member
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      They been on the back burner for a while:)

      I've been thinking for some time of about this cross what do you folks think, the Doits is the female tell me what you think.Name:  20180331_181045-1-1.jpg
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    2. #2
      spkennyva is offline Senior Member
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      I think you should definitely give it a shot. Perhaps a very experienced breeder can provide more guidance on an expected outcome? I tried a scaled x scaleless cross once and the results were poor - lots of fin deformities, odd scales, and very poor yield. I did get a couple decent fish that I still have, but would not attempt that particular cross again. This may sound like I'm pushing you away from this cross, but my fish were not even close to what you show above. The parents you present look fantastic!

      Beside, if you've been thinking about this for a while, then you MUST do it. We have so few opportunities to experiment, and every season that passes and you don't make this cross is a lost opportunity.

    3. #3
      Orlando is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by spkennyva View Post
      I think you should definitely give it a shot. Perhaps a very experienced breeder can provide more guidance on an expected outcome? I tried a scaled x scaleless cross once and the results were poor - lots of fin deformities, odd scales, and very poor yield. I did get a couple decent fish that I still have, but would not attempt that particular cross again. This may sound like I'm pushing you away from this cross, but my fish were not even close to what you show above. The parents you present look fantastic!

      Beside, if you've been thinking about this for a while, then you MUST do it. We have so few opportunities to experiment, and every season that passes and you don't make this cross is a lost opportunity.
      Thanks for you thoughts, when I said a while I should have been more clear, been thinking this one for two year's. Thank you for the shared experience I had read that bad or negative outcomes were with Doitsu x Doitsu but we all see that results vary from spawn to spawn.

    4. #4
      Matt24's Avatar
      Matt24 is offline Senior Member
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      Looks like a nice pairing Orlando. The first time I tried spawning showa, I used a Doitsu female and scaled males.
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...ght=2015+showa

      I got huge numbers including fully scaled, linear (a row of scales down each lateral line), leather (no scales on sides) , and a substantial number had scattered scales (junk), but it was okay because there were so many. In the end, I got a lot of decent looking, fairly good koi, but nothing that I really liked a lot. But I think that had more to do with the pattern quality of the oyagoi than anything else. So in my opinion, it is fine to do, as long as you realize a substantial percentage will have scattered scales (which you may not be able to see until you have raised them up for several weeks). Also I should point out an surprising thing about my spawn was that almost all of the ones that had decent patterns were fully scaled. Your mileage may vary. Since then I have only used fully scaled oyagoi.

      Is your female Doitsu leather or linear? These two types have different scalation gene pairs that can effect the results substantially.

    5. #5
      Orlando is offline Senior Member
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      Matt, this female has no scales I believe is what they call leather.

    6. #6
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      You might have seen the old Soviet research paper on koi scalation at
      http://www.fao.org/3/B3310E/B3310E14.htm
      As I understand the research, the scales are governed by two gene pairs that interact to result in 4 scale types. Definately not the technical way to say it, but here is the simple way I like to think of it:

      N is Doitsu.
      n is non-Doitsu.
      S is "more scales".
      s is "less scales".

      N and S are dominant genes. n and s are recessive genes.
      If a koi has an S but no N, it is standard scaled (fully scaled).
      If a koi has no S or N, it is scattered scaled (what some call mirror carp).
      If a koi has an S and an N, it is linear scaled (row of scales down the lateral line).
      If a koi has an N but no S, it is leather (no scales on the sides).
      Also, koi that have two N's can't survive hatching. So when crossing Doitsu koi with each other, whether leather or linear, expect to see 25% of the fry dead on the bottom after hatching.

      Do you like linear scaled Doitsu koi? I like them fine, but some people don't. I ask because it is possible (but unlikely) that all of your Doitsu koi will come out linear, with none leather. We know that your leather female has the ssNn gene grouping. But we only know that your fully scaled male is either SSnn or Ssnn. You can't tell by looking. If he is Ssnn (probably 67% chance), you might expect 25% of each of the four scalation types. If he is SSnn (probably 33% chance), you should get 50% fully scaled and 50% linear scaled. So the good news would be no scattered scales, but there would be no leather ones either.

      Another article I have yet to study on the matter that mentions the relationship between the N's and S's is:
      https://www.koiorganisationinternati...entry/genetics

    7. #7
      spkennyva is offline Senior Member
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      That is really great information Matt! Thanks for posting it.

      I now know that the crossing I did (referenced above) was leather x fully scaled.

    8. #8
      Akuma is offline Junior Member
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      Love the Showa.

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