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  • Results 1 to 12 of 12

    Thread: Need some expert insight regarding . . . gill flukes

    1. #1
      Charlottekoi is offline Member
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      Need some expert insight regarding . . . gill flukes

      I'm having a problem with gill flukes. Well, not me, but my Doitsu Showa is (ha).

      Here's the backdrop. I had some water quality issues this spring - a filter crash, and too much muck in the pond. In very early summer, I added an Aquadyne 8000 bead filter & UV sterilizer to my 3000 gallon pond and the pond health has improved dramatically - less muck, very clear water, no leftover koi waste to cause problems. But during this unhealthy spring period, my Doitsu Showa got sick and i've been nursing him back to health all summer.

      About 10 weeks ago, i discovered that my prize Doitsu Showa had a very bad case of gill flukes. I did two back to back treatments with AquaCura, a powder prazi product, and he started eating again and resumed normal behavior. Then, about a week to 10 days after these first two treatments, he got sluggish again and ate sparingly - so i did another prazi treatment, and he perked right up and joined the other fish in being very active and hungry. This pattern has repeated itself over the summer and today, i just did my 6th prazi treatment since late spring! The other fish are super active and are feeding voraciously - and i think of this doitsu showa as the weakest fish (health-wise) and the first to exhibit symptoms - so in that sense, he's the "canary in the coal mine".

      I've read that gill flukes are notoriously hard to get rid of - is this accurate? And if yes, are there any tips for ways to improve treatment? My pattern has been this: treat for 5-7 days (with the UV clarifier off), do a water change, wait exactly four days so more fluke eggs can hatch, and then do the second treatment. Then about 7-10 days after this process is finished the Showa gets sluggish again, etc.

      Finally, my knowledge and koi skills have improved dramatically in 2020 - but i'm still not ready to get a microscope and start scraping. I diagnosed the gill flukes just based on symptoms alone - isolation from the other fish, hanging near the aeration sources in the pond, not eating, etc.


      SETUP: 3000 gallon pond w/a small mechanical biofall, a bog filter, and now an Aquadyne 8000 bead filter with UV clarifier.
      Water quality is terrific - zeros across the board, with KH at 12 drops, PH about 8.1.

      Thanks in advance for your insights! ck





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    2. #2
      No Buddy is offline Senior Member
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      Bad idea diagnosing on symptoms . too many ailments cause similar symptoms. Get a scope and know what you are treating. I am not familiar with that product you are using but I would suggest scoping the fish and getting pure praziquantel. if you are repeating flukes. NEVER just treat for one type of bug when you are not positive what they have. It takes various types of treatments to do a shotgun treatment to kill the most common types that affect Koi. At minimum do a FMG and Prazi regimen.

    3. #3
      graybird's Avatar
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      I'm not above treating based on symptoms, but I'm not convinced this is gill flukes based on your description. Any jumping or flashing? Any spitting of food? What is your water temp, and do you have aeration going?
      My advice: 1. Go to koiorganisationinternational.org, register on the site, and go all the way to the bottom of the home page where you'll see "CKK contact list." Check to see if there's a CKK (Certified Koi Keeper) in your area If so, get in touch with him/her and they can come out and help you diagnose.

      If that doesn't pan out, 2. treat with Proform-C according to label instructions, then treat with Kusuri Fluke-M, with a second treatment 4-7 days after the first depending on water temp. I gave up on Prazi products a long time ago and use Flubendazol now, which is the active ingredient in Fluke-M. For both treatments, be sure you have plenty of aeration, especially if your water is warm.
      Mary

    4. #4
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      richtoybox is offline Administrator
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      As graybird has alluded, the treatment to get gill flukes is to treat with subsequent treatments 4 to 7 days depending on temperatures with at least two treatments, and a third may be necessary. You don't want to give the gill fluke eggs a chance to hatch and mature. They need to hatch to be able to kill them, but once mature they will start laying eggs and without treatments close enough together to kill the juveniles between hatch and maturity, the cycle just repeats.
      Zone 7 A/B
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      Richard

    5. #5
      Charlottekoi is offline Member
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      Thanks to all who have replied. I’ll definitely look up the certified koi keeper site. There has been no flashing or jumping - water temp 80F, lots of aeration - and after treating with prazi this morning the fish is noticeably more active and eating well. So if this is not Gill flukes I’ll be surprised because of the obvious success of the prazi treatment. Regardless, if this treatment doesn’t do it, then I agree that switching to Proform C makes sense.


    6. #6
      Charlottekoi is offline Member
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      Well, graybird, i was excited about your CKK tip but the closest one is 3.5 hours away - and we only have one in the entire state! Hopefully this person travels - i'll know soon. Regardless, it's great to learn about this resource. Thanks again. ck


    7. #7
      Charlottekoi is offline Member
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      final thought - on this site, i've learned of many superior products and it sounds like Fluke M is one of them. For a year i used the liquid form of PraziPro for flukes - and then later learned how ineffective it can be if you get a bad batch. I then switched to a powder prazi product and my guess is that it's doing okay, in that it's creating a setback, but not eradication event for the flukes - and it's allowing them to hang around for longer than i want. Now i'm going to switch to Fluke M and I'm guessing that will take care of the flukes for good. ck


    8. #8
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Charlottekoi View Post
      final thought - on this site, i've learned of many superior products and it sounds like Fluke M is one of them. For a year i used the liquid form of PraziPro for flukes - and then later learned how ineffective it can be if you get a bad batch. I then switched to a powder prazi product and my guess is that it's doing okay, in that it's creating a setback, but not eradication event for the flukes - and it's allowing them to hang around for longer than i want. Now i'm going to switch to Fluke M and I'm guessing that will take care of the flukes for good. ck
      Any of the fluke products only work well depending on the circumstances surrounding the use and proper application of the product. Many people don't even know the true volume of their ponds and that can cause and issue if it is under dosed. Many of the fluke products only work well if they are ingested by the Koi so that it gets onto the blood stream of the Koi. No ingestion - does not work. Many ponds are also very dirty. I don't meant he kind of dirt you can see and it has nothing to do with water quality parameters. It has everything to do with dissolved organics. I see a lot of people post that their "water tested perfect" yet I can see in the pictures that their water is not perfect. Dissolved organics will make many medications useless as it "absorbs" the product. Finally, there is only one fluke product that works without the Koi having to ingest it. It is FlukeM.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    9. #9
      cottagefog is offline Senior Member
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      May I suggest a PP protocol. Follow directions to a tee. Read up and it can be done very safely which might cure your ailing koi.

      I have used this with great results. Good luck

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...light=roddy+pp

    10. #10
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      I would not suggest using PP for the same reasons some of the other meds don't work. Additionally, PP is an Oxidizer, and is indiscriminate in what it oxidizes. If you don't get it right it can oxidize the gill tissue of your Koi or it, on the flip side, can be totally ineffective.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

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    11. #11
      cottagefog is offline Senior Member
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      ....or it could be effective!

    12. #12
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by cottagefog View Post
      ....or it could be effective!
      Sorry, but there are too many reasons not to use it just because it is inexpensive. I used to use it 15 - 20 years ago.


      Yes, it could effectively kill everything in your pond including your fish. Does it say anywhere on the container of PP that it is used for killing Flukes? Is there a dose rate on the container for killing Flukes? No, and the reason is, that was not what that product was intended for and, even though you may have had luck with it, a person who does not know their pond volume, or has a lot of dissolved organics, or does not dose right even in a perfect pond could kill their fish. There is no doubt about that. Prazi, FlukeM etc. are, on the other hand, used for Flukes. You can over dose with Prazi and FlukeM and there are none of the same consequences. Using something that oxidizes organics to treat your fish for anything is risky.
      Last edited by Russell Peters; 08-11-2020 at 10:30 AM.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

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