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    Thread: Flukes?

    1. #1
      LTHYNE is offline Senior Member
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      Flukes?

      She had a small spot two days ago and now this. Has become lethargic and noticed other fishes now having same issue.

      I know salt is usually a no and doesnt treat flukes but I raised my salt level to .3

      Also hit the pond with this prazi.

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      10000 gallons
      PH 9
      Ammonia 0
      Nitrates 0
      KH 120
      GH 180

      I received four new fish from a respectable shop on Tuesday.

      Thanks. Leo

    2. #2
      LTHYNE is offline Senior Member
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      I dont have a scope to look at a scrape

    3. #3
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      Without a scope to see the flukes there is no assurance that the problem is flukes. Normally, for a shotgun treatment to treat for unknown parasites we would recommend the use of Proform C, three treatments followed by the Prazi or Fluke M, but the label instructions on Proform C states not to be used with salt. John of Hanover Koi has used both salt and Proform C and says that it is ok, but being off label means do at your own risk. Most of the parasites became salt resistant is the reason for going against salt, but that was at 0.3% salt, and I believe most are still susceptible to 0.6%. Do you have a salt meter? Trying to take the salt to 0.6% without knowing the actual pond volume could be dangerous as many ponds due to sloping sides, irregular shape, uneven bottom are not as large as calculated and sometimes by as much as half, meaning the dosage could be double what you are trying for.

      The only reason I have addressed the treatment above is because you mention the fish becoming lethargic. The change in color could be due to unstable color genetics. The Chagoi (brown), Soragoi (gray), and the Ochiba (brown and gray) are very closely related and the Ochiba in particular will change color and pattern if not real stable, and that looks like what is happening with the color. Not something to worry about.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    4. #4
      LTHYNE is offline Senior Member
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      Thanks for the response.

      I do have a salt meter and and I will get it to .6 tomorrow....

      As I do understand the discoloring could be genetic, the change happened almost over night and doubled in two nights in row....She is not the only ones with this patchiness of color now on their bodies....

      What I am thinking is - the new koi added into pond...to early to make any impact to fish...
      My wife did add Baking Soda without telling me...and the PH levels jumped to 10.5. I think this potentially stressed the fish allowing a parasite living inside of them to duplicate and mark their damage on the koi.....

      Let me purchase some Proform C....I went with the prazi because it was the only thing i could get my hand on this morning besides PP......

    5. #5
      KoiRun's Avatar
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      I think the skin condition you are seeing is commonly misdiagnosed as sun burn when is most likely due to cyanobacteria toxins. That and the ph swings inherent with blue-green algae. At this time of the year normally in well functioning pond nitrifying bacteria dominates over heterotrophic and phototrophic organisms. With this, you should see increasing nitrates necessitating water changes. Judging by the picture the water looks green and there doesn't seem much water movement. Your nitrate is zero because your ammonia is consumed directly by cyanobacteria so it never gets turned into nitrites and then into nitrates. Your Ph is high because of CO2 consumption by cyanobacteria.

      Typically you should correct your water first before adding chemicals or giving any medications. The red flag is the high ph and the green water. Baking soda will take the ph only up to 8.3 but algae and cyanobacteria will take up pass 10. Please describe your filtration, filtration maintenance, water changes, water temperatures (am and pm) and the amount of shade you get on the pond during the day. What is your ph before sunrise and again around 4 pm especially when it is sunny? What are your source water parameters? It would be really helpful if you could post a youtube video of your pond and filtration.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin

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    6. #6
      SimonW is offline Senior Member
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      You are growing fluke with 0.3% NaCl, as it will cause the fish to produce more slim, which is food source for fluke.

    7. #7
      LTHYNE is offline Senior Member
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      Thank you for the response.

      Rebuilt the pond in April. The pond is in sun from morning sunrise till 4pm. Sadly I dont have an accurate number for average ph levels at different times of the day.

      Had a lot of heavy rains last week dropping a lot of rain.
      Since these rains I noticed a huge influx of floating string algea. Prior to this week the pond stats looked good and the pond was crystal clear. With no signs of algea or growth of any substance

      Water Change
      I use my irrigation system to drop water from the well 4 times a day for 15 minutes at a time.
      Filtration

      Two skimmers - 3 inch pipes
      1/2 hp motor
      Aquadyne 16000 bead filter [flushed weekly]
      Water back to pond. Temporary as I am still building bog style waterfalls for this run.

      Two bottom drains - 4 inch pipes
      Into zakki draco drum filter
      1/2 hp motor
      Large zakki shower
      [Zakki drum and shower made from deepwater koi]

      Aeration
      Two pumps feeding each of the bottom drains

      I'll get some pics later today

    8. #8
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      This is not a color change, in fact, if you were to feel the surface it probably has some dimension to it. It could be parasitic. I would do the shotgun treatments, without salt, as I don’t think it wise to use ProformC and salt. Once those are over then you could try a high salt dose in the pond or a salt paste directly in the affected surface.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    9. #9
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      The shift to a very high pH is troubling. Baking soda makes a floor for the pH of about 8.3, if there is sufficient aeration to drive off the carbon dioxide produced by the bacteria, the fish respiration and the algae reversing photosynthesis reaction overnight. During the daylight hours the algae consumes carbon dioxide (an acid when in solution) resulting in a drive to push the pH upward. Baking soda shifts at higher pH to break off carbonate ions from the bicarbonate, but carbonates have very high pH, in the range of around 10 or higher. If there is calcium ions present, the calcium will react with the carbonates creating a precipitate like chalk/limestone/marble which binds the ions out of solution, making them inert as far as pH is concerned. If your pH is going high, you need to add calcium chloride (a common deicer, but be sure it is calcium chloride and not potassium chloride, sodium chloride or other chemical, you can also use pool or spa hardness increaser which is calcium chloride but more expensive). Dissolve it before adding to the pond as it generates a significant amount of heat when added to water.

      I can't tell from the picture if it is dimensional as Russ surmises or not, but I had Chagoi that did this color change and it was fairly drastic speed when the water reached a particular temperature. I don't remember the temperature.

      First things first, get the water straight.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    10. #10
      LTHYNE is offline Senior Member
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      Thanks everyone.

      Is calciu chloride the same as muruatic acid? Should I start adjusting the PH while I have the PraziPond Plus treatment ongoing?

      I also stopped the salt bath per the instructions from all. The level got to 2.3 prior to me stopping.,,,The bright side....the string algea bloom i had on the bottom of the pond floor is now gone...

      Over night was not kind...The chagoi is struggling to stay down...She goes down and slowly comes back to the top. When she tries to go down, her head is south and tail is north...... I really hope this prazipond plus can do its thing before I lose her.

      I think the Prazi is doing its job. I am 18 hours into the treatment and I have noticed my bigger fish are all now flashing and breaching the water.....I believe I read this is caused by possible parasites (flukes) being irritated from the treatment and pissing off the fish......I hope this is the case....

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    11. #11
      LTHYNE is offline Senior Member
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      one day ill learn to post pictures properly ;-(

    12. #12
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      No, calcium chloride and muratic acid are not the same. Calcium chloride is a salt which does not affect the pH, unless there is an excess of carbonate ions. Muratic acid is as the name says an acid, hydrochloric acid, and it will bring the pH crashing down once it consumes the KH ions. Calcium chloride salt is used for deicing, but be sure if using a deicer that it states it is calcium chloride, it is also used as a pool/spa hardness increaser increasing the GH of the pond.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    13. #13
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      Soon I think you need to take the chag out into quarantine tank. Aerate. Examine the gills.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin

      KoiRun on YouTube, latest video:
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    14. #14
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by LTHYNE View Post
      Thanks everyone.

      Is calciu chloride the same as muruatic acid? Should I start adjusting the PH while I have the PraziPond Plus treatment ongoing?

      I also stopped the salt bath per the instructions from all. The level got to 2.3 prior to me stopping.,,,The bright side....the string algea bloom i had on the bottom of the pond floor is now gone...

      Over night was not kind...The chagoi is struggling to stay down...She goes down and slowly comes back to the top. When she tries to go down, her head is south and tail is north...... I really hope this prazipond plus can do its thing before I lose her.

      I think the Prazi is doing its job. I am 18 hours into the treatment and I have noticed my bigger fish are all now flashing and breaching the water.....I believe I read this is caused by possible parasites (flukes) being irritated from the treatment and pissing off the fish......I hope this is the case....

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      This is ABSOLUTELY NOT a color change and the behavior of the Chagoi proves it. I am thinking it may be bacterial and you should pull it and check.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    15. #15
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      Soon I think you need to take the chag out into quarantine tank. Aerate. Examine the gills.
      Soon the fish is going to be in bad shape
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    16. #16
      LTHYNE is offline Senior Member
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      I have ordered the following

      1. Microscope - will be here tomorrow
      2. Proform C
      3. Another round of prazi..

      In one more day I'll start the removal of salt. Once the salt is gone I'll shot gone medicate the pond with a second dose of prazi [in the event I have gill flukes] and the proform [recommended by my fish dealer].
      As of now she is still hanging tight. Has a little bit more energy today. Having some issues staying on the bottom of the pond....I dont want to pull her out until I get the scope to do some testing...

    17. #17
      LTHYNE is offline Senior Member
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      Received my scope today and took a sample.

      Noticed this morning my pond was very active with fish movement compared to the past four days of lethargy.

      As noted, on Saturday I salted and used prazi pond plus.

      Took a scraping from the chagoi. Three areas were there was mucous buildup. Placed slide under scope and saw no movement of parasites.

      Is it out of the norm to see nothing? Could it be the prazi had done its job and killed the potential parasite? Not going to risk it, and will add a second treatment after day 5...


      Thoughts?

    18. #18
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      Flukes, if present should be visible at 40X while costia requires 400X power. If you saw nothing moving, then most likely the population of the parasites is low enough to not be an issue. Do follow up with second dose as the Gill Fluke is an egg layer, with the eggs falling to the bottom of the pond to hatch in a few days. You want to hit them a second time before they have a chance to start laying eggs of there own.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    19. #19
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by LTHYNE View Post
      Received my scope today and took a sample.

      Noticed this morning my pond was very active with fish movement compared to the past four days of lethargy.

      As noted, on Saturday I salted and used prazi pond plus.

      Took a scraping from the chagoi. Three areas were there was mucous buildup. Placed slide under scope and saw no movement of parasites.

      Is it out of the norm to see nothing? Could it be the prazi had done its job and killed the potential parasite? Not going to risk it, and will add a second treatment after day 5...


      Thoughts?
      Mucous buildup can be from bacterial issues.
      Last edited by Russell Peters; 1 Week Ago at 06:59 PM.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    20. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by LTHYNE View Post
      Thank you for the response.

      Rebuilt the pond in April. The pond is in sun from morning sunrise till 4pm. Sadly I dont have an accurate number for average ph levels at different times of the day.

      Had a lot of heavy rains last week dropping a lot of rain.
      Since these rains I noticed a huge influx of floating string algea. Prior to this week the pond stats looked good and the pond was crystal clear. With no signs of algea or growth of any substance

      Water Change
      I use my irrigation system to drop water from the well 4 times a day for 15 minutes at a time.
      Filtration

      Two skimmers - 3 inch pipes
      1/2 hp motor
      Aquadyne 16000 bead filter [flushed weekly]
      Water back to pond. Temporary as I am still building bog style waterfalls for this run.

      Two bottom drains - 4 inch pipes
      Into zakki draco drum filter
      1/2 hp motor
      Large zakki shower
      [Zakki drum and shower made from deepwater koi]

      Aeration
      Two pumps feeding each of the bottom drains

      I'll get some pics later today
      Sound very much like a new pond syndrome problem. In a new pond there is not enough bacteria to out compete algae/cyanobacteria until the biofilms on the filters, pond walls and pipes mature. When algae out complete bacteria for nutrients the ph will climb. Every spring when my pond come out of winter I watch for this by checking my ph closely and only start taking off my styrofoam pond covers when I'm satisfied that my filters are strong enough to prevent the proliferation of algae. Algae is not always apparent (water and pond walls seems clear) but they are there. The optimum ph range for carp is 7-8.3. I would say anything above 8.5 is transiently (short-term) tolerable but will be stressing the koi. They will be then prone to parasite and bacterial issues. When they get to this stage salt and medication might be appropriate but understand what initiated this problem (water quality). Underlying water quality problem should be sorted out concurrently with medication treatments. I'm not experienced with chemical treatments but I believe salt and other chemicals will delay the maturation of new filters; certain algae will also take a hit (just aware of this). Many dislodged parasites and their eggs and pathogenic bacteria thriving in solid waste settle at the bottom. I'd make sure the bottom of the pond is clean as well as the bottom drain pipe. If it is not, vacuum the bottom and purge your bottom drain frequently and regularly. You have a huge pond, try shading as much as you can to curtail algae/cyanobacteria growth.
      Last edited by KoiRun; 1 Week Ago at 07:10 PM.
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