• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
    Results 1 to 20 of 23

    Thread: Newbie question re: Sick Koi

    1. #1
      RMH is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2020
      Location
      Colorado
      Posts
      16

      Newbie question re: Sick Koi

      Greetings from Colorado! Newbie here.

      We had/have 7 Koi quarantined while trying to knock out gill and skin flukes to no avail.

      This was after a failed overall pond treatment with ProForm C and Prazi to knock out Chilodonella and flukes. Neither worked.

      On the advice of our local Koi dealer, we have since treated them in a salt bath (3%) for 2 minutes at a time - with fresh-water breaks in between - for a total of 10 minutes. None of the fish rolled over during the salt bath but one Koi died within 24 hours and another small one is laying on its side, seemingly paralyzed from the mid-section to tail. I did a scape on the dead Koi and still found a heavy infestation of flukes and some Chilodonella. Scrapes on the other fish showed nothing else but flukes.

      Waited 24 hours and went thru the same treatment again - except the small one laying on its side. This seemed to do the trick; scrapes on 3 found nothing. (Plan to do scrapes on the others later this evening.)

      It seems the parasites are gone but our largest Koi is still occasionally flipping out by swimming erratically and trying to jump out of the tank. When he slows down, he occasionally shakes/twitches his head and floats to the top, head-up. A few times, he has slowly rolled to his side. He was doing all of this before the salt bath, so I don't know what else to check for or do for him...

      The smaller Koi (4") was twitching and swimming erratically prior to the salt bath as well; I may have put him over the edge because now he appears to have issues with his swim bladder. I'm at a complete loss as to how to help this little guy.

      Is this normal as the parasites are dying, or were the Koi already so weakened that the salt bath doomed them?

      Thanks for any help or advice you can offer.

      P.S. Water parameters in each of 4 tanks: 0 to .25 ammonia, 8.2 PH, 0 nitrates, 0 nitrites, 5 drops to yellow on KH

    2. #2
      RichToyBox's Avatar
      RichToyBox is offline Administrator ~
      Koi Health Care Committee Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Sandston, VA
      Posts
      14,038
      I don't know what to say about your questions, but to get more info, these fish were in a pond???, and are now in aquariums???

      Were there other koi in the pond than these that are in quarantine? What is the size of the largest koi that is showing the symptoms?

      I have never done salt dips, but the parasites did some damage while they were in residence on the fish. The damage needs time to heal, so that may be some of the issue with the fish, and I have seen some flashing for a few days following treatments due to irritation that I believe was present when the treatments were done.

      With additional info others may have more help.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    3. #3
      kdh is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2011
      Location
      up north
      Posts
      7,905
      The salt can affect the osmoregulation of a koi witch might cause swim bladder issues.

    4. #4
      RMH is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2020
      Location
      Colorado
      Posts
      16
      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      I don't know what to say about your questions, but to get more info, these fish were in a pond???, and are now in aquariums???

      Were there other koi in the pond than these that are in quarantine? What is the size of the largest koi that is showing the symptoms?

      I have never done salt dips, but the parasites did some damage while they were in residence on the fish. The damage needs time to heal, so that may be some of the issue with the fish, and I have seen some flashing for a few days following treatments due to irritation that I believe was present when the treatments were done.

      With additional info others may have more help.
      Thank you so much for your reply.

      Yes, they were in a pond (approx. 6,000 gallons); we had to remove them to do liner repairs and diagnose flashing issues. The largest one that is having issues is 14 inches.

      We're preparing to return them to the pond today, so perhaps he will bounce back. I just hope I haven't missed any parasites, as I'm not skilled in doing gill exams/scrapes.

    5. #5
      RMH is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2020
      Location
      Colorado
      Posts
      16
      Bad news - our big guy died this morning. I'm devastated.

      Did a post-mortem gill scrape and there were still flukes (after Prazi pond treatment and salt baths).

      The other larger Koi (4 total) are doing very well; did skin scrapes on all today and found nothing. They have been returned to the pond.

      Thanks again for the responses.

      (The small one with the swim bladder issue was not returned to the pond; he is finally eating but still laying on one side in quarantine.)
      Last edited by RMH; 4 Weeks Ago at 08:37 PM.

    6. #6
      Rich8888ri is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2012
      Location
      West islip ny
      Posts
      133
      If you ask a bunch of people on this site, fluke m is a much better product for getting rid of flukes. You can buy it on line and possibly on ebay.

    7. #7
      RMH is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2020
      Location
      Colorado
      Posts
      16
      Thank you. This forum is incredibly helpful! I'm learning all of the things I shouldn't have done in the beginning - lol (and that Fluke-M is better).

      I just finished day 3 of treating the pond with ProformC, with a final day of AquaPrazi. Had to use that because my Fluke-M order hasn't arrived yet.

      Now studying the forums to determine the best course of a follow-up treatment once the Fluke-M arrives. I'm so done with flukes!

    8. #8
      icu2's Avatar
      icu2 is offline Administrator ~ WWKC Treasurer
      is is old and cranky
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2007
      Location
      Poulsbo, WA
      Posts
      30,948
      I don't know if I've ever had a death from just flukes. My "go to" shotgun treatment is to use Broad Spectrum Disease Treatment (BSDT)
      (or Proform C) for 3 treatments on consecutive days with a 10% water change after day 1 and again after day 2, then on day 3 add the BSDT
      and Fluke M both and leave for 7 days. Then I usually wait a week and do another 7 day treatment of just the Fluke M. Seems to work well and
      kills most bugs out there. No salt in the water before treatment and be sure your UV is off. Water temps should be above 50*. Leave all filtration
      running during treatments.
      --Steve


      Control your own destiny or someone else will.

      ---Jack Welch

    9. #9
      RMH is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2020
      Location
      Colorado
      Posts
      16
      Thank you. I can't imagine why we lost him - nothing else was wrong - no ulcers, eating just fine, etc. - except he had an infestation of flukes even after Round #1 of treatment of entire pond with Proform-C and AquaPrazi (we've since lost 2 more, exhibiting the same symptoms).

      Fluke-M is *finally* arriving today, so I'll start Round #2 with BSDT this time, and Fluke M on 3rd day with appropriate water changes. (We don't have a UV filter but are planning to install one before Fall.)

      Thanks again.

    10. #10
      kdh is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2011
      Location
      up north
      Posts
      7,905
      You mentioned Chilo? Chilodonella is quick to kill. Flukes can kill a koi but generally a secondary parasite comes to play like Chilo. So would (guess) a combination of the two took your koi.

    11. #11
      icu2's Avatar
      icu2 is offline Administrator ~ WWKC Treasurer
      is is old and cranky
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2007
      Location
      Poulsbo, WA
      Posts
      30,948
      I've never seen it posted so can you do tests for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, KH, and temperature?
      --Steve


      Control your own destiny or someone else will.

      ---Jack Welch

    12. #12
      SimonW is online now Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2018
      Location
      Sweden
      Posts
      411
      .
      Last edited by SimonW; 2 Weeks Ago at 06:07 AM.

    13. #13
      SimonW is online now Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2018
      Location
      Sweden
      Posts
      411
      I wonder if you have tried 0.6% salt? If the medicines donīt work (probably resistance) then a salt treatment may be the last solution, as parasites cannot develop resistance to changes in basic living conditions, at least not within thousands of years.

      I read that 0.6% salt 14 days can kill chilo and costia. I wonder if flukes can also be killed by that.

    14. #14
      coolwon is online now Senior Member
      is Garfield is my name DIY is my
      game
       
      Feeling:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2016
      Location
      Durban South Africa
      Posts
      1,813
      Would you be plunging them into the salt solution or building them up to the desired dosage?

      Garfield
      Find more about Weather in Durban, ZA

    15. #15
      SimonW is online now Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2018
      Location
      Sweden
      Posts
      411
      What I have read is adding the 0.6% gradually into the pond. I have tried with putting my koi fry directly into water with 0.5-0.6% NaCl, and I have also dumped solid NaCl directly into the water with koi(of course it took some time for the salt to dissolve completely), without any observable problem.

      One place says that 0.3% NaCl may help fluke as the fish will produce more mucus - food to fluke. But 0.6% will eventually kill fluke.
      Last edited by SimonW; 2 Weeks Ago at 09:24 AM.

    16. #16
      RMH is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2020
      Location
      Colorado
      Posts
      16
      Quote Originally Posted by kdh View Post
      You mentioned Chilo? Chilodonella is quick to kill. Flukes can kill a koi but generally a secondary parasite comes to play like Chilo. So would (guess) a combination of the two took your koi.
      A deadly combination, apparently. Yes, found Chilodonella on the first dead fish (after 3-day treatment); retreated remaining fish with Proform C for another 3 days, followed by AquaPrazi again. No Chilo after that - just flukes. Guess the damage had been done.

      This is quite the learning experience.

    17. #17
      RMH is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2020
      Location
      Colorado
      Posts
      16
      It was in the "P.S." in my original post (Water parameters in each of 4 tanks: 0 to .25 ammonia, 8.2 PH, 0 nitrates, 0 nitrites, 5 drops to yellow on KH).

      Since then, we've transferred the fish back to the pond.

      New parameters in the pond are almost identical to the above, except Ammonia = 0; PH is also steady both am and pm. Water temp today is 64 degrees.

    18. #18
      RMH is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2020
      Location
      Colorado
      Posts
      16
      Have not tried salt in the pond yet - still learning, and appreciate the wealth of info in this forum.

    19. #19
      RMH is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2020
      Location
      Colorado
      Posts
      16
      Ha. Ha.

      I didn't plunge them into a strong solution at first, as I'm still timid about causing too much stress on the fish. Started with a 1% solution, then after no success, called our local Koi guy who recommended a maximum of 2 minutes at a time in 3% - for total of 10 minutes, with long freshwater breaks in between.

    20. #20
      RMH is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2020
      Location
      Colorado
      Posts
      16
      Thank you! Seems like there are many people who do use salt with great results and many others who recommend against it. It's confusing.

    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •