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  • Results 1 to 13 of 13

    Thread: Unknown etiology

    1. #1
      Doreen310 is offline Junior Member
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      Unknown etiology

      Good evening,
      Any ideas on what is happening to our fish. Our water was tested and it perfectly balanced. We have injected 4 koi with baytrol and made medicated fish food. We have no idea what is causing the loss of our fish. Please look at the photos and insight would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in Advance.
      Attached Images Attached Images      

    2. #2
      inazuma28 is offline Senior Member
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      First and foremost, Im sorry you're dealing with this.
      In order to help, just like in medicine, we need to rule out certain things.
      In order to do that we need actual numerical results for the tests. pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, and KH if you are able.
      This looks like it might be a parasite issue.
      Do you have a microscope?

    3. #3
      RichToyBox's Avatar
      RichToyBox is offline Administrator ~
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      As inazuma28 stated we like to start with actual numbers for the test results. Can you describe the size of the pond, the type of filtration, the number of fish, and any strange activity that the fish may be exhibiting. Most problems can be attributed to the water quality and it is so important when it comes time to heal. The fish are suffering from bacterial issues with ulcers and pineconing of the scales, so the use of injectible antibiotics (Baytril) will be very much needed for these fish. What broke the skin to allow the bacteria to get into the fish in the first place could be parasites so a microscopic exam would be beneficial. But no matter where we go, we have to have a great environment for them to heal.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
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    4. #4
      Doreen310 is offline Junior Member
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      No microscope we had a new to the area vet look he did a skin scrap on two of the fish... found nothing. I do not have the exact numbers for the water sample as that was also completed by the vet. We have done a 25% water changed used melaflex, parazoryne, and sabbactisun... not all at the same time of course. Being in the health profession myself I would like to know what it is. I did discuss a water c&s but I guess that would be unreasonable considering the ecological bases of pond water. Someone recommended. The ulcers and lesion progressed over time. The fish we lost today had an injection 10 days ago....

    5. #5
      Doreen310 is offline Junior Member
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      We have had the pond for 5 years never had any issues. 800 gallons, laguna filtration. We have also Ben told people in our area are having a lot of trouble with their ponds with the warm winter.... very frustrating.

    6. #6
      KOIAnon is offline Member
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      Aeromonas? Sometimes resistant to enrofloxacin.

    7. #7
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      The injections for the bacterial infections should be 3 days in a row, followed by two more every other day. For more info, look at https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...ive-Discussion Part 17 for sedation, Part 18 and Part 19 for antibiotics, and Part 11 for topicals.

      The treatments that you have used in the water have not been shown here to have any real effect, except to line the pockets of the manufacturers.

      The 25% water change is good and frequent changes of that size would be good on a pond of this size. Typically we feel that for koi, one koi needs to have 250 gallons of water with typical filtration. With really great filtration that can be pushed some, but water parameters need to monitored heavily.

      I would highly recommend the purchase of the API Freshwater Master Test Kit, plus the API KH test kit. Knowing what your water parameters are is essential and taking a water sample to a fish store or to the vet is too inconvenient to be done frequently.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    8. #8
      Doreen310 is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by KOIAnon View Post
      Aeromonas? Sometimes resistant to enrofloxacin.
      Thatís is what the vet said;(

    9. #9
      Doreen310 is offline Junior Member
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      [QUOTE=RichToyBox;2755656]As inazuma28 stated we like to start with actual numbers for the test results. Can you describe the size of the pond, the type of filtration, the number of fish, and any strange activity that the fish may be exhibiting. Most problems can be attributed to the water quality and it is so important when it comes time to heal. The fish are suffering from bacterial issues with ulcers and pineconing of the scales, so the use of injectible antibiotics (Baytril) will be very much needed for these fish. What broke the skin to allow the bacteria to get into the fish in the first place could be parasites so a microscopic exam would be beneficial. But no matter where we go, we have to have a great environment for them to heal.[


      Thank you here are the latest water results./No nitrates,ph 7.5, carbonate hardness40, General hardness 0, ammonia 0.25

    10. #10
      KOIAnon is offline Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Doreen310 View Post
      That’s is what the vet said;(
      Aeromonas can be challenging.

      If the enrofloxacin/Baytril doesn't seem to be working the next step is to consider a cephalosporin.

      Fish vet Richmond Loh has a video where he deals with this exact problem:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGv9J_cAnTE

    11. #11
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      [QUOTE=Doreen310;2755724]
      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      As inazuma28 stated we like to start with actual numbers for the test results. Can you describe the size of the pond, the type of filtration, the number of fish, and any strange activity that the fish may be exhibiting. Most problems can be attributed to the water quality and it is so important when it comes time to heal. The fish are suffering from bacterial issues with ulcers and pineconing of the scales, so the use of injectible antibiotics (Baytril) will be very much needed for these fish. What broke the skin to allow the bacteria to get into the fish in the first place could be parasites so a microscopic exam would be beneficial. But no matter where we go, we have to have a great environment for them to heal.[


      Thank you here are the latest water results./No nitrates,ph 7.5, carbonate hardness40, General hardness 0, ammonia 0.25
      I think that you will find, if you run a pH first thing in the morning, and late afternoon, that there is a significant difference. To prevent this, I like to see the carbonate hardness (KH) above 100 which is easily accomplished with the addition of baking soda. If the pH is above 8 in the afternoon, the amount can be added all at one time as calculated with the calculator at the top of the page. I really like to target a value of 150 since the biological processes produce acid which consumes the KH, and as it falls below 80, you are entering an area that is relatively high pH fluctuations and approaching pH crash which will kill the bio bacteria and potentially the filter. Large pH swings are stressors that allow the parasites to proliferate. I also like to see the general hardness (GH) above 40 which can be achieved with the use of calcium chloride (swim pool or spa Hardness Increaser) as the calcium ions combine with the carbonate ions when the pH goes high to maintain a lid on the range. With more consistent pH, the bio bacteria will be happier and the ammonia should fall to zero.

      If the bacterial infections are not being helped with the use of Baytril, then the other antibiotic that I have used with success is Amikacin, and Russell Peters seems to like Fortaz, so if the ulcers are not improving fairly quickly with the Baytril, see if you can get one of these others.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    12. #12
      Doreen310 is offline Junior Member
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      [QUOTE=RichToyBox;2755742]
      Quote Originally Posted by Doreen310 View Post

      I think that you will find, if you run a pH first thing in the morning, and late afternoon, that there is a significant difference. To prevent this, I like to see the carbonate hardness (KH) above 100 which is easily accomplished with the addition of baking soda. If the pH is above 8 in the afternoon, the amount can be added all at one time as calculated with the calculator at the top of the page. I really like to target a value of 150 since the biological processes produce acid which consumes the KH, and as it falls below 80, you are entering an area that is relatively high pH fluctuations and approaching pH crash which will kill the bio bacteria and potentially the filter. Large pH swings are stressors that allow the parasites to proliferate. I also like to see the general hardness (GH) above 40 which can be achieved with the use of calcium chloride (swim pool or spa Hardness Increaser) as the calcium ions combine with the carbonate ions when the pH goes high to maintain a lid on the range. With more consistent pH, the bio bacteria will be happier and the ammonia should fall to zero.

      If the bacterial infections are not being helped with the use of Baytril, then the other antibiotic that I have used with success is Amikacin, and Russell Peters seems to like Fortaz, so if the ulcers are not improving fairly quickly with the Baytril, see if you can get one of these others.
      Thank you I will do that first thing in the morning. Greatly appreciated!!!

    13. #13
      kdh is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by KOIAnon View Post
      Aeromonas can be challenging.

      If the enrofloxacin/Baytril doesn't seem to be working the next step is to consider a cephalosporin.

      Fish vet Richmond Loh has a video where he deals with this exact problem:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGv9J_cAnTE
      This is a very good educational video and would recommend anyone who is interested in koi health care to listen to every word and watch a couple of times. Thumbs up!

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