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  • Results 1 to 18 of 18

    Thread: Dougs Pond finally

    1. #1
      Dougnutz is offline Member
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      Dougs Pond finally

      In a previous decade (ok 4 years ago) I tried to build a pond but life got in the way, there is an old thread but I decided not to necro it since the plans have evolved. Now I am finally back at it construction has started! I collected a few things over the years as deals and money allowed but most of the things I am finally buying now.

      So the proposed size and shape are mostly dictated by environmental factors and a very high water table. I have a shallow end which is 2 feet to ground level, it slopes quickly to 3 feed then down to 5.5 feet. I managed to get a nearly flat 8-9 foot bottom on the deep end. The total width is 12 feet moderately consistent. The pond is roughly oval with a max length of just over 21'. I estimate the volume to be close to 6k gal. Based on the fill rate of the hose and confirmed by online calculators. I am above grade by about 6 inches and above the water table by about 2 feet. Really the water table is probably lower but I have springs popping up all over. Including in the pond site. Here is roughly what it looks like.
      Name:  Pond size.jpg
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      I tried to get a bottom drain in the low point, but due to the water table I was working in mud. I managed to get a pipe in place but had to abandon it due to muck and mud. I opted to go with a retro drain, reluctantly. On the upside I have a liner in place which has been filled for a week and the bottom firmed up and is pretty flat in the deep end. (people keep asking if it's a pool )

      I have some equipment including 2 sequence 750 pumps (lightly used), a 500gal water tank for a settling chamber, a UV sterilizer, two sand gravel filter (and parts for a second), and trickle tower. The SG and TT are already running on a quarantine tank. The quarantine tank is about 1k gal. I will need to expand the mechanical and bio filtering.

      My rough plumbing and layout will look something like this
      Name:  Pond plumbing.jpg
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      I am concerned about the bottom drain size but I'm not sure I can get a 4 inch in place here, most of the retro ones are 3 in. Based on the size I think it will sweep the bottom ok. Maybe not the sloped part. I hope the TP's and the slop will push stuff down to the BD.
      I am also looking for advice on TP placement and general plumbing. I am expecting that the skimmer will feed into one pump, go through SG filters and return via the waterfall. The Bottom Drain would feed the settling chamber then into the second pump, from there into a tt and would also return via the waterfall. I was planning to have the outputs of both pumps split, one side going to filters and one side returning via tpr, with ball valves to adjust flow. I will probably use the UV filter on one of the TP lines, probably the ones coming from the BD. Maybe it makes sense to have one on the skimmer side too.
      Filtering in general is area I think I need the most help. I have looked through so many guides and builds my head spins.
      I think I will need at least two SG filters and additional TT filters, or some other bio filter.
      Last edited by Dougnutz; 09-04-2020 at 03:58 PM.

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    2. #2
      kimini is offline Senior Member
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      I think that the aerator will push all the floating stuff to the opposite end of the pond and hold it there "cornered"; if possible, the skimmer and aerator should be at opposite ends. I have a similar size pond and learned this the hard way. Yes, there are circulation jets, but unless they're really strong, they aren't going to overcome the surface current generated by the surfacing bubbles.

      Oh, and you need a "Beware of Doug" sign near the pond...
      Last edited by kimini; 06-29-2020 at 10:59 PM.

    3. #3
      Dougnutz is offline Member
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      Name:  Far Side Beware of Doug.png
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    4. #4
      trapper is offline Senior Member
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      I think ya should add a pre filter to the SC so you'll be pumping fairly clean water to your TT. I had a old 16 gallon shop vac container that I used and added 4 cu ft of bacti-twist . It works well and my feather rock never clogs with crap.

    5. #5
      Dougnutz is offline Member
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      I finally made some decent progress on this thing. I have a high water table that I'm fighting. As I would dig the bottom became muddy and started to fill some with water. . I opted to take an old aboveground pool liner and use it to shape the pond. This is really wierd I know... I partially filled the liner so that it had a water level higher than the water table. It settled in and eventually became firm. I figure I can just leave it in and put a pond liner on top of it.

      Name:  20200722_184738.jpg
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      Then I poured a footer with rebar around the pond then did two rows of dry stack with rebar every other hole. Added a pool style skimmer and tprs/piping. Then filled the blocks and poured a "bond beam" with rebar in the top row (not shown). After the concrete had some time to cure I covered the top row with old pond liner material (to protect the new liner) and installed the new liner

      Name:  20200811_123345.jpg
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      At this point I have had it full for a few days, with a pump and uv filter running just to try to keep the algae at bay The water turned green pretty fast in the old pool liner.

      I haven't cut the liner for the tpr's or skimmer. I want to make sure it isn't going to settle or do anything funny since the bottom was basically floating when I started. At the moment it seems firm on the bottom and things looks to be solid. There are a few wrinkles I just could not get rid of. I'm trying to figure out if any sort of underwater tape my help with the wrinkles.

      If things are stable I'm anxious to get the fish out of the quarantine tank. It's hard to keep the water quality stable. I hope to move them to the new home as I finish some of the plumbing. I'll use external filters and plumbing from the quarantine tank until I can get the main filters and settling tank online. Is there any new pond concern with liners like there is with concrete?

    6. #6
      perniciousviper's Avatar
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      Good progress Dougnutz. Water in a new pond is always a big moment.

      No issues with liner re: leaching etc so crack on.

      All I would say on a cautionary note is... those angular corners. Even with rebar wrapped round them above ground level, you want to be encasing that rebar in concrete and filling those external voids as well as the voids in the blocks themselves. Could the blocks have been cut with a grinder so they sat together better and support a more continuous run of concrete horizontally as well as vertically?

      Water pressure won't be huge at just two blocks above grade, but there will be some trying to push those walls out and apart...

    7. #7
      Dougnutz is offline Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by perniciousviper View Post
      Good progress Dougnutz. Water in a new pond is always a big moment.

      No issues with liner re: leaching etc so crack on.

      All I would say on a cautionary note is... those angular corners. Even with rebar wrapped round them above ground level, you want to be encasing that rebar in concrete and filling those external voids as well as the voids in the blocks themselves. Could the blocks have been cut with a grinder so they sat together better and support a more continuous run of concrete horizontally as well as vertically?

      Water pressure won't be huge at just two blocks above grade, but there will be some trying to push those walls out and apart...
      Thanks for noticing that. I forgot to mention I did go back and cut the blocks for a better fit. That picture was a first pass, trying to work out a shape. I still had some angle gaps in the same area though not as pronounced as in the pic. I filled the inside voids, primarily for smoothing out the surface the liner pushes on. The corners have vertical rebar in the block, where most of the blocks are just every other block. And all voids in the block themselves where filled. I made sure every corner had at least two half inch rebar lengths running horizontally through it.
      The outside gaps though smaller than pictured they still existed. I felt like just packing concrete in those corners would not do anything. Maybe I underestimated the grab it would have but it seems like it would just break away. So while I did fill it somewhat with concrete for appearance sake it didn't seem that it would really do much. Now I am wondering if I should have tried to do more :\

      I guess I will just have to keep an eye on that. The water level will be around the middle of the second layer of block so my expectation/hope is the pressure won't be that high. I'm not sure if there is anything I could do to reinforce it short of a rebuild of the corner.


      On the side to the left as pictured the ground level will be back filled so that it's basically near the top of the pond. The right side, which faces the house will be lined with stone etc.

    8. #8
      Dougnutz is offline Member
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      I think something is not right with my pump and filter setup. I have things running but the flow looks pretty low to me for two sequence 750 pumps (4200 and 4500 ghp). One pump pulls from the settling chamber fed from the bottom drain. It splits between a sand gravel filter, a bio filter, and two tprs, I have to shut the tprs off to get any flow to the S/G and bio filters. The sand gravel and bio filter return to the pond (planned waterfall )The second pump is fed from the skimmer then splits to one sand gravel filter and one tpr. This circuit seems to work fine. but still seems to flow a bit low.

      For reference the pumps and base of the S/G filters are at the same level as the pond surface (give or take an inch or so). So technically the pumps are above pond level. They haven't been hard to prime. The output of the S/G filters is right about 32 inches above pond level.

      All pipes except the BD are 2 inch. I tried to minimize any 90's or 45's but there are still quite a few

      Am I just expecting too much from these pumps? The advertised 4500 GHP seemed great, though if I estimate 5' of head they should still do 3k each. It really doesn't seem like it's that much. But honestly I haven't measured it either.

      For the moment I have two of the tpr's turned off and flow seems to be about what I would want through the S/G and bio filters. I would hate to buy another pump just to get flow up.

    9. #9
      icu2's Avatar
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      I think you're right and you're pumps are on the small size for the number of returns. Each one of those
      returns from the SC, the s/g, bio, and each tpr, should be able to flow about 2k gph each. But the suggested
      pump flow for a 300 gallon SC is 3000-4500 gph, so that might be a limiting factor.
      The skimmer circuit seems to be better balanced but the head might be a tad higher than planned and so
      it might be better to buy liarger pumps and put ball valves after the pump to adjust the output.
      Something like the Ultra III sieve will flow 7900 gph and would be a good upgrade for the SC.
      --Steve



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    10. #10
      Dougnutz is offline Member
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      Thanks for the reply. The Ultra Sieve definitely is nice. But not in my budget really. Maybe down the road.

      On the SC I ended up with a 500gal tank. The pump isn't able to drain it at all. I think the level drops only about 1/2 (probably less) when the pump is running vs turned off. It makes me feel like the pump isn't drawing enough. Rereading some of the Plumbing stickies I think I should have a 3 inch feedline coming from the SC to the pump, it's 2 in currently. I'm skeptical that this is my problem though. I think I am going to try redirect the SG outlet to feed the biofilters rather than branching the pump outlet. I don't see much flow at the bio filters so this would definitely increase the flow.
      Last edited by Dougnutz; 09-04-2020 at 03:57 PM.

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    11. #11
      Grumpy is offline Senior Member
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      This may help you decide your best approach. You can get a good idea of your actual flow from the pond into the settlement chamber by accurately reading the difference in water levels in the pond and settlement chamber while in operation. Use the propulsion charts such as:

      Name:  propulsion rates with pipe size.JPG
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      If you can estimate the line loss for pipe fittings from the bottom drain to the chamber and make adjustments for line loss it is best. But an estimate even without adjustment will still give you a idea of the flow.

      If you used 3" pipe from your BD to the SC, and your elevation difference is 1/2" (0.04 ft) the BEST you could be flowing is about 2000 gph into the SC. If you have multiple pipes into your SC add the cross-sectional areas of all the pipes and pick the equivalent sized pipe from the chart.

      This is still just a rough estimate, but will still give you a ball park volume you are presently moving.

      Stay Well

    12. #12
      Dougnutz is offline Member
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      Wow that is a great chart. Thanks! I clearly have a flow problem

      I guess I'll start by increasing the suction side line and removing those 90's.
      Water clarity is suffering too. The numbers seem fine to me, maybe hardness is a little low?
      ph 8.2
      Ammonia 0-.25 ppm. (looks like it's not zero but not .25 either
      Nitrite 0-.25 ppm
      Nitrate 0ppm
      Kh and Gh both right about 100

      My settling chamber is collecting an amazing amount of junk in just two weeks. I flushed it last night and plan to do a partial water change today. My well water PH is about 7.2. Should I be concerned about dropping ph during a water change? I'm wondering if I should get the hardness up before changing water.

    13. #13
      Dougnutz is offline Member
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      ok, new pond startup questions. The water clarity seems to be getting worse. I can still make out details but it's not great. not like it was anyway. Is this just fines filtration?

      More concerning, the Nitrites are climbing .5 or slightly more., Ammonia is hovering around .25 a little under probably. nitrates are less than 5 but not zero.

      ph is hovering around 8-8.2 the kh/gh are around 100.

      is the high Nitrite just the bio filters getting started?

      aside from water changes should I do anything else?

    14. #14
      Fishmover is offline Supporting Member
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      Do you have any fish in there?

      If no, then you pond is cycling and you have nothing to worry about. If you do have fish in there, then keep an eye on the nitrates and have some salt handy to salt to pond. Also get a a dechlorinator that binds ammonia.

    15. #15
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dougnutz View Post
      ok, new pond startup questions. The water clarity seems to be getting worse. I can still make out details but it's not great. not like it was anyway. Is this just fines filtration?

      More concerning, the Nitrites are climbing .5 or slightly more., Ammonia is hovering around .25 a little under probably. nitrates are less than 5 but not zero.

      ph is hovering around 8-8.2 the kh/gh are around 100.

      is the high Nitrite just the bio filters getting started?

      aside from water changes should I do anything else?
      This is what you should see in a typical filter cycling and time frame:

      Name:  nitrification cycle.jpg
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      --Steve



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    16. #16
      Dougnutz is offline Member
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      Thanks icu2! My fish went in about 3 weeks ago so timewise I'm about right. I'm doing water changes about 20% yesterday and again today (this morning).

      I'm guessing I need to let some level of nitrite remain so the good bugs can take up residence in the filters?

    17. #17
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dougnutz View Post
      Thanks icu2! My fish went in about 3 weeks ago so timewise I'm about right. I'm doing water changes about 20% yesterday and again today (this morning).

      I'm guessing I need to let some level of nitrite remain so the good bugs can take up residence in the filters?
      Not sure if there's a product that will totally remove it, but some claim to make it non toxic. Water changes will help control
      it and raising the salt level to .15% will protect the fish from brown blood disease. Be sure to test your source water too so
      you know if you're adding any amount of nitrite/ammonia when doing water changes.
      --Steve



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    18. #18
      Dougnutz is offline Member
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      Thanks again Icu2. The water source is a spring. I have tested. It's the same water I have used for years.
      I tested the water quality when we filled it and it was pristine. I think I'm just going to deal with it by doing water changes.
      I will also be expanding my bio filtration so eventually that should help too.

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