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    Thread: Shotgun Treatment - Canadian issues

    1. #1
      GoldieGirl's Avatar
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      Shotgun Treatment - Canadian issues

      Three weeks ago I moved my koi and goldfish plus all the old established filters to their new pond. Now I am getting some flashing from my larger koi. I hadnít had a bacterial or parasite problem in the past 8 years so in preparation for some possible treatments, I started to look into sourcing the products I might need. Imagine my surprise when I learned that in 2018 Canada had banned all over the counter fish medications!!!

      Common, everyday treatments in the US are now only available by veterinary prescription here. However, there are some work arounds.

      I have a microscope and am a Certified Koi Keeper, but I do not have anyone right now to help me catch and handle the big koi for a scrape and scope.
      I would prefer to do a shotgun treatment, so Iíll start with my parameters. I have not seen a spike in ammonia or nitrite since the changeover. My source water is a combination of tap and well. I run a trickle thru of about 5% volume per day. My pond is a metered 2260g. I dechlorinate with Seachem SAFE. Pond temperature is currently 62F.

      Ammonia - 0
      Nitrite - 0
      Nitrate - 0 - 5
      KH - 89ppm
      PH - 7.2 - 7.4

      PH measured at dawn and dusk with both the regular API kit and the high range kit - no swing between am and pm.

      I added a tiny new koi about 2 weeks ago with no quarantine but did a 45 min dip in Kordon Rid Ich, which is a formalin/malachite green product.

      I cannot get Prazi, Proform C, Dimilin, or Fluke M here in Canada, but this is what I have on hand and on order:

      Rid Ich: 26% formalin, 0.038% malachite green

      Microbe Lift Anchor Lice & Anchorworm Treatment: N-cyclopropyl-1,3,5-triazine-2,4,6-triamine
      https://microbelift.com/wp-content/u...NCHOR_WORM.pdf

      Crystal Clear Wipeout: 2% Chloramine T
      https://s3.amazonaws.com/cdn.crystal...ipeout-sds.pdf

      Panacur: 10% Fenbendazole in suspension.

      There is an old thread talking about using Panacur for flukes:
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...azole-Question

      So, could someone please help me put together a shotgun treatment with these ingredients or suggest some others. There are plenty of meds available that are meant for other animals that I can probably find (the Panacur is a livestock wormer).

      Thanks very much.
      ________________________________________
      Cheers,
      Ci


    2. #2
      cottagefog is online now Senior Member
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      Are you able to buy your 4 restricted items through ebay, amazon or does their software stop you from purchasing by typing in a Canadian address?

    3. #3
      GoldieGirl's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by cottagefog View Post
      Are you able to buy your 4 restricted items through ebay, amazon or does their software stop you from purchasing by typing in a Canadian address?
      They state that the items cannot be shipped to my Canadian address.
      There are many more than 4 restricted items. I just listed those because they are the ones most commonly used in treating koi. Any suggestions for alternative meds are welcome!

      The legislation:
      https://www.canada.ca/en/public-heal...icrobials.html

      The list of banned substances
      https://www.canada.ca/en/health-cana...-medicine.html
      ________________________________________
      Cheers,
      Ci


    4. #4
      coolwon is online now Senior Member
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      Permanganate of Potash ?

      Should be available.

      Isolate your filters and flow thru.

      Roddy Conrads your pp fundi. Read on.

      It can be very harmful but very effective, read the dosage very carefully.

      Dosage under koi cajculations, at the top of the page.

      Garfield
      Find more about Weather in Durban, ZA

    5. #5
      coolwon is online now Senior Member
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      Permanganate of Potash ?

      Should be available.

      Isolate your filters and flow thru.

      Roddy Conrads your pp fundi. Read on.

      It can be very harmful but very effective, read the dosage and instructions very carefully.

      Dosage under Koi Calculations, at the top of the page.

      Garfield
      Last edited by coolwon; 1 Week Ago at 11:32 PM.
      Find more about Weather in Durban, ZA

    6. #6
      GoldieGirl's Avatar
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      I have PP, so I suppose I could try a round of that first. I don’t know, I feel kinda of lost and brain foggy - I need to just take some time to figure out the standard shotgun treatment and what dosages and timing I should follow with my substitute meds.
      ________________________________________
      Cheers,
      Ci


    7. #7
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      Hi Ci,

      At your water temps, this is how I would proceed. I don't use PP for parasites but do use it to knock back pond contaminants and waste.
      Turn off your UV during treatments.

      I would do a three dose course of your MG/F medication. I would dose for the gallons of the pond and do the treatments every other day with 25-30% water changes prior to each treatment. I don't use it with salt present in the pond.
      I would do 3 treatments of the fenbendazole, spaced 5 days apart. The first can be done with the last course of the MG/F. On days that I implement it, I would also take just enough to lightly coat the food they are fed and feed it to them once. It works best ingested, unlike FlukeM which I know you can't get. It's why I find FlukeM works so much better. Often a single run of FlukeM will take care of flukes (and intestinal parasites) whereas Prazi and Fenbedazole take numerous applications.

      I haven't used the Microbelift anchor worm and lice treatment. I would probably skip this unless you actually have seen them present.

      Chloramine T is for bacterial issues. I wouldn't dose the pond with it but rather use it as a bath if needed.

      Regarding your flow through, don't do it on treatment days for the MG/F but the in between days it would be okay. I would let your Fenbedazole stay in the water for 3 days and then begin flow through.

      HTH
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    8. #8
      GoldieGirl's Avatar
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      Thank you so much Marilyn! I have ordered the F/MG stuff, as I donít have enough on hand, although I do have the fenbendazole now.
      The one large chagoi that seems the most affected was bottom sitting and clamping today, so I felt that i needed to do something. I turned off the filters, added air and did a 3ppm PP treatment. The colour turned after about 2 hours - I added 2 qtís of 3% HP to make sure it was completely neutralized. Just turned the filters on a couple minutes ago. None of the fish seem stressed.

      According to my notes (which I probably got from Roddy Conrad), the protocol for PP is to repeat every 3-6 days for 5 treatments. If I donít get the F/MG in 5 days, Iíll do another PP dose, but if it does come in, shall I go ahead and follow your treatment shedule?

      Thanks again for your advice, I was hoping you would see my thread and respond!

      Now that I know about the Canadian ban on meds, I will order what I need when I go down to the states to visit my Mom and Sis in California. But that could be a long time down the road ... the border is closed right now to non-essential traffic.
      Last edited by GoldieGirl; 1 Week Ago at 03:51 PM.
      ________________________________________
      Cheers,
      Ci


    9. #9
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      You are very welcome! My computer was charging and updating or it would have been sooner.

      I would switch over to the MG/F when it arrives. The good news is that your water should be in very good shape when it arrives. You won't need to do big water changes between treatments. That is primarily to address situations where the water is laden with things that will burn off the medications. I would just go back to your flow through for a day between treatments.

      Regarding by passing filters, I do that for PP treatments but don't do it for the medications. You want them in there but do turn off your UV as it will spend the medication.

      I think the shelf life on FlukeM is three years. I just had this conversation with someone earlier this year. That is the only one that I would make sure to pick up the next time you get down here. It sure is tough with the borders closed. I hope things get back to normal soon.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    10. #10
      cottagefog is online now Senior Member
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      So your mom or sister could sent you a "care" package from California if they wanted to? I guess they just have to wrap it in coffee so the drug dogs cant sniff out the restricted chemicals?

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