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    Thread: Something not right with koi

    1. #1
      LobsterOfJustice is offline Senior Member
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      Something not right with koi

      I have a pond established for 2 years and owned 4 koi for a few years before that at another house. 2 weeks ago I added two new koi from an online order. I noticed today that the new small koi and some of the old established koi were just hanging out in the top corner instead of swimming around. I canít see them very well as the pond water has some tint to it but it seems like they might have some cloudy blotches on body and maybe eyes and some cloudy margins on fins. They do seem to still be eating for now.

      What is the best course of action as far as maybe water tests or medication?

      Pond is a couple thousand gallons with a zakki sieve and s/g barrel for filtration.


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    2. #2
      LobsterOfJustice is offline Senior Member
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      I added some floating plants recently too.


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      Asagibottom is online now Senior Member
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      Water parameters are a start. PH, KH, Ammonia are likely the most important. I'd say net the koi and scrape them as well as post pictures of what you're seeing for proper I.D. You know the drill

    4. #4
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      If you don't already have the test kits, I would get the API FRESHWATER MASTER TEST KIT and an API KH TEST KIT. These will get us some information on water quality issues. These are always first.

      Were the fish hanging early in the day, mid day, all day??? Were there other issues with the actions of the fish?

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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      Using API kits Ammonia is 0 (or maybe 0.25 but hard to read and I donít think there is ammonia) and KH is 2ish. GH test was supposed to go from orange to green but never was either color, just started dilute yellow and got more yellow the more drops I put in.


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      I just checked on them for the first time today and noticed the behavior (in the evening) but my mom is visiting and mentioned they were hanging up in the corner earlier today. I donít think I checked on them yesterday but they were normal at least two days ago. Here a picture of one tail. Hard to get pics, nothing shows up.


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    7. #7
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      With a KH of 2, I would suspect the pH is shifting quite significantly morning to evening and that is stressing them. Check pH as early, nearest sunrise, as possible and again at near sunset and compare the results. Shouldn't shift more than about 0.2 or 0.3. Increasing the KH with baking soda will stabilize the pH at about 8.3.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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      Richard

    8. #8
      LobsterOfJustice is offline Senior Member
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      Thanks I will add some baking soda. I used to use waste water from my RODI (harder than tap water) for the pond but something happened with my line and I have been using tap for top-off and water changes recently.


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    9. #9
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      The cloudy blotches are probably due to increased slime coat. Increased slime coat is a protection method against irritation. pH shifts are skin irritants, as is ammonia and parasites. Work on getting us the rest of the numbers for water quality. I don't believe, form behavior, the problems are parasites, but just in case, it might be a good idea to get on hand Proform C and Fluke M or Prazi.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    10. #10
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      Something not right with koi

      I have raised the KH to 5 with an addition of baking soda last night and this morning. Just added some more and will continue adding a bit each morning and night until I get to maybe 10-14?

      The pH is confusing me. I went ahead and ordered a high range test which should be here in a few days. In the mean time, I figured I can bring in a water sample and test it on my pH meter inside on my saltwater aquarium. When I brought in my sample last night taken an hour after adding some baking soda - didnít think of using my aquarium monitor until then), it rose from 7.0 (calibration solution I had stored the probe in) to about 7.6 in 1 hours, 7.7 in 2 hours and settled around 7.8 after 3 hours. I assume most of that is slow equilibration with the air in my garage and may not represent the true pH in the pond. Similar result when tested this morning before baking soda addition, value raising from 7.0 to 7.65 after 1 hr, 7.75 after 2 hr, settling around 7.7 after 3 hours. To clarify, I am not testing every 3 hours, I am speaking of the pH drift of the sample over that time. The probe is also calibrated for low range which I know is not correct, I will recalibrate the probe for high end and see if that helps but not expecting much. Test kit should be here Friday or Saturday.


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      Last edited by LobsterOfJustice; 2 Weeks Ago at 11:53 PM.

    11. #11
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      I used pH probes for my testing as the meters are easier to read and I feel more accurate than my eyes interpretation of colors. I never let the meter just set and stabilize. I tested the pond with the meter being held in the pond for a few minutes to stabilize, but never hours.

      The pH in a pond with aeration to drive off carbon dioxide will be different than the pH in a bucket of water allowed to stagnate.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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      Richard

    12. #12
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      Something not right with koi

      Just found one of the small new koi dead. Pic of growth at the base of his tail. Also some other kind of ??? On his tail fin. Not sure if the red marks on body are something or not.



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    13. #13
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      Iím very scared of losing my established koi of 6+ years. Is there anything else I can do? Any kind of broad spectrum conditioner or medication I could use? Would salt help?


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    14. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by LobsterOfJustice View Post
      Iím very scared of losing my established koi of 6+ years. Is there anything else I can do? Any kind of broad spectrum conditioner or medication I could use? Would salt help?
      See Rich's post #9. Proform-C (or Broad Spectrum Disease Treatment is an alternative) and Fluke-M are "shotgun treatments".
      Don't use salt if you're going to use these and water should be over 55*.

      For KH each "drop" is equal to ~17.8 ppm so 10 drops would be 178 ppm. I try and keep mine at about 8-10 drops.
      --Steve


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      and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him,
      for then it costs nothing to be a patriot.

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    15. #15
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      Is it okay to use the proform-C along with the baking soda to raise KH? Just asking because you said not to use it with salt.

      I also have CaCl, MgCl, MgSO4, and CaOH, would any of these be useful to raise GH? Or just stick with the baking soda and KH?


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    16. #16
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      There should be no problem with baking soda and Proform C. Unless you are having extremely high pH, near or over 9, I would not try using the CaCl. GH is generally not an issue requiring correction, though there are some water sources that have GH values of near zero and then a mix of CaCl and MgSO4 are needed. Look at https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...arleston+water.

      Are you using straight city water or are you using water that has been treated with a water softener. Water softeners remove the calcium and magnesium (GH) making the water in the pond require large additions of chemicals to keep the required chemistries.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    17. #17
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      Something not right with koi

      Got a new non expired kit and GH is 3 drops or 54 ppm. Second test was 2 drops or 36 ppm. No water softener just city tap hose water. Like I said I was using RODI waste water until recently which is basically tap water run through a carbon block and with mineral content over concentrated by about 25%. I have raised KH to about 10 with baking soda and will re-dose as necessary after water changes to keep it there.

      I picked up some Broad Spectrum Disease Treatment (same as proform-c Iíve been told) and treated yesterday and today with a 25% water change before todayís dose. 3 of my large established koi are acting a little more normal (swimming around more) and donít look too bad (some cloudiness on fins, gray spots on body). One of my established is hiding and bottom and looks really bad with either slime or fuzz growths, large gray and red portions of tail, and large sections of body with ulcers. And the remaining small new one looking rough as well.


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      Last edited by LobsterOfJustice; 1 Week Ago at 06:25 PM.

    18. #18
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      The two that are not doing well should probably be treated with Tricide Neo. What you are describing on the larger koi sounds like fungus, which is always secondary to areas of infection.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    19. #19
      LobsterOfJustice is offline Senior Member
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      Something not right with koi

      I have done three doses of BSDT with 25% water change before doses 2 and 3. From what I can tell the recommendation is now to wait a week (the instructions donít tell you how many consecutive doses are recommended) - I had considered a fourth dose today just for good measure and since the fish seem to be responding well. I have raised and maintained KH around 10. The three koi I mentioned before continue to improve in terms of behavior - they are more or less acting normal at this point. I guess it may take time for them to physically heal - they still have some imperfections / blisters on body and tail, but not much.

      The other two which were looking worse for the wear have been hiding at the bottom so itís hard to get a good look at them, but they are still alive. If thatís still the case Monday morning I will make some calls and see if anyone is able to ship me Tricide Neo quickly. Luckily the one who is looking the worst is the smallest of my established koi (although also my second favorite ) so I can probably temporarily house him in a 55g tank for 3 days while I do the dip treatments. He looked like he had multiple issues going on (half of tail red, fuzz/slime growth, patches of missing scales replaced by red and gray ulcers) and I will be surprised if he pulls through. He hasnít come up to feed the past two days but he is also my shyest koi so his behavior isnít completely out of character.

      Thank you for all your help. At this point Iím pretty sure the bigger three will pull through and Iím sure that is due to the quick advice of getting my water quality improved and getting some medication into the water.


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      Last edited by LobsterOfJustice; 1 Week Ago at 08:19 AM.

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      Here are some pictures of the established koi who is not looking good. Today is the first day in several days that he is up swimming with the others. I think the small new one has died. I have some tricide neo on the way but I will admit I am hesitant to stress him out with multiple captures and dips. But it does look like he needs some kind of intervention. You can see the gray and ragged margins of tail along with red main part of tail, gray peduncle, and large fuzzy gray patches on the left side of the body. I apologize for the bad photos but I can see it so clearly in person, but the camera seems to focus on the glare and ripples... Does the tricide neo still seem like the best next step?








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