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  • Results 1 to 13 of 13

    Thread: Hikari Utsuri and Kin Kikokuryu?

    1. #1
      Asagibottom is offline Senior Member
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      Hikari Utsuri and Kin Kikokuryu?

      Attached are a a picture some koi Iíve got- the kin kikokuryu is 13Ē nisai from petsmart and the other is a 19Ē sansai. Iím wondering what the experts might call their official names to be. I recognize they arenít the prettiest fish ever- Iím actually getting ready to sell these pond grade friends to someone on Craigslist after a little bit of attention and quarantine but would like to give them a close name. The two in the title are the best I could come up with. Let me know what you think!Name:  883DBC65-5156-48DA-B309-EDD53BC3801F.jpg
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    2. #2
      Asagibottom is offline Senior Member
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      Also, let me know what you think the sexes are! I checked their ports today and believe them both to be female.

    3. #3
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      The first one is a poor example of a Kikokuryu, most likely. Maybe Doitsu Kujaku? It's not a pure enough representation to easily be classified.
      The second one is a Kujaku.

      Koi are not called Hikari something. Hikari is a characteristic of the skin. A Kujaku has Hikari, a Kohaku does not. A Yamabuki has Hikari, a Kigoi does not.
      Kin means gold/metallic gold.

      Not a clue on gender, try to milt them.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    4. #4
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      Though the article was probably written a decade ago, it should help with an understanding of what Utsuri means:

      https://mpks.org/utsuri-shadow-and-light/
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    5. #5
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      The previous link was to an article written by Bryan Bateman and is very good. It is copyrighted 2009.
      A number of his other articles can be found here discussing many of the best known varieties:

      https://mpks.org/category/deeparticles/
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

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      Asagibottom is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      The first one is a poor example of a Kikokuryu, most likely. Maybe Doitsu Kujaku? It's not a pure enough representation to easily be classified.
      The second one is a Kujaku.

      Koi are not called Hikari something. Hikari is a characteristic of the skin. A Kujaku has Hikari, a Kohaku does not. A Yamabuki has Hikari, a Kigoi does not.
      Kin means gold/metallic gold.

      Not a clue on gender, try to milt them.
      Thank you Marilyn! Very helpful. I will read the articles in the morning. I've got quite a bit to learn. I figured the first wasn't much of anything but a mutt. No milt whatsoever - I did feel some "hips" a bit higher than the port. The port was also quite wide and a bit triangular shaped.

    7. #7
      coolwon is online now Senior Member
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      Irrespective, in very good condition.

      Garfield
      Find more about Weather in Durban, ZA

    8. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by Asagibottom View Post
      Thank you Marilyn! Very helpful. I will read the articles in the morning. I've got quite a bit to learn. I figured the first wasn't much of anything but a mutt. No milt whatsoever - I did feel some "hips" a bit higher than the port. The port was also quite wide and a bit triangular shaped.
      There is also something the Japanese call Oiboshi. It's a roughness on the leading rays of the pecs and the gill plates. Now is a decent time of year to feel it. That is an indicator of male though I did have a female once with decided Oiboshi and she developed eggs so it's not 100%. I would say next to milt or eggs, it's the closest to it as possible.
      Milt, conformation and behavior may be your best guides to a definitive answer.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    9. #9
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      I'd say the first one is a Doitsu Kujaku without a pattern(not a Mizuho Ogon).
      Whether Kin or Beni Kikokuryu, I don't see the typical traits that they have such as an eye shadow effect, black cheeks and dirty nostrils.

      The second one may have started out as a Kujaku but at this point I'd categorize it as a Beni Ginga.

      BTW Hikari Utsuri is a term used to categorize metallic Koi that have a banded sumi pattern. Pretty much the only varieties in this category would be Kin Showa, Kin Ki Utsuri, and Gin Shiro Utsuri.

      And obviously be careful when dealing on Craigslist lol

    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by JapaneseFamousKoi View Post
      And obviously be careful when dealing on Craigslist lol
      Thanks! Yeah of course! We’ve gotten a lot of people interested already and I turn 90% of people down to even look at the fish. I take good pictures beforehand and put them online so I can have the fish ready when they get here and don’t see my pond!

      I’m quite sure the first one started out looking kikokuryu and lost the dirty face and pattern, surprisingly. Not sure what the kujaku like one started out as. My wife picked it out because she likes orange koi

    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by JapaneseFamousKoi View Post
      I'd say the first one is a Doitsu Kujaku without a pattern(not a Mizuho Ogon).
      Whether Kin or Beni Kikokuryu, I don't see the typical traits that they have such as an eye shadow effect, black cheeks and dirty nostrils.

      The second one may have started out as a Kujaku but at this point I'd categorize it as a Beni Ginga.

      BTW Hikari Utsuri is a term used to categorize metallic Koi that have a banded sumi pattern. Pretty much the only varieties in this category would be Kin Showa, Kin Ki Utsuri, and Gin Shiro Utsuri.

      And obviously be careful when dealing on Craigslist lol
      Interesting. Is this done in Japan or within the United States? When I was newer in the hobby I did buy some Utsuri with Hikari but they were not listed as such.
      The one that comes to mind was a Kin Ki Utsuri. You're saying it should have been called a Hikari Kin Ki Utsuri?
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      Interesting. Is this done in Japan or within the United States? When I was newer in the hobby I did buy some Utsuri with Hikari but they were not listed as such.
      The one that comes to mind was a Kin Ki Utsuri. You're saying it should have been called a Hikari Kin Ki Utsuri?
      No no, it's just a category name and not a label. So if I were to ask a Japanese breeder/dealer, do you have any Hikari Utsuri(or Utsuri with Hikari), they'll show me to their Kin Showa & Kin Ki Utsuri selections.
      I'm sure you've seen these labels at the AJKS(which I don't understand why they don't just print in English). So next to the owner's name(under 80BU) it says "Hikari Utsuri". And then of course to the right it states the handler & producer, both of which says SFF who I had no idea bred Kin Showa!
      https://youtu.be/DY2DEF-Y194

      It gets confusing because I've seen a lot of foreign dealers mislabel their Koi, or some varieties are just called differently in Japan. For example, Kin Ki Matsuba is often called Ki Matsuba Ogon by the older generations. I've also seen US dealers label metallic Hi Utsuri as Kin "Hi" Utsuri, but in Japan both the yellow & orange type would just be called Kin Ki Utsuri.
      Unless they come from a specialized breeder like Tsuna or Miyatora, most likely these are just by-products of the Kin Showa anyways

    13. #13
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      That makes more sense. Very interesting on the Kin Ki Utsuri. I outgrew my fascination with them rather quickly as few are as nice as you hope they will be as tosai.

      A lot of the big name breeders are branching out into things I never thought I would see them breed. Dianichi's Black Diamond, for example. I remember how surprised I was seeing Goshiki by Taniguchi. The everything pond at Omosako was quite a surprise too.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

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