• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
    Results 1 to 20 of 29

    Thread: Koi Scales - Flashing, Jumping

    1. #1
      Asagibottom is offline Senior Member
      is Going going goners
       
      Feeling:
      Amused
       
      Join Date
      May 2018
      Location
      Nowhere
      Posts
      349

      Koi Scales - Flashing, Jumping

      My koi have been acting strange for a few days. I've had our filters up and running and filtering well for some time. I've done several water changes this spring, always with dechloinator. Today, after watching several of our koi flash and try and scrape themselves against our bottom drain, we decided to net some of our larger fish. One, our largest Shusui has a few scales missing with some algae hanging from it. It looked like an anchorworm - that's why we chose to net it. When I pull the surrounding scales, where the algae-like substance is attached, I notice behind looks very fleshy. This is the case in a few spots.

      There's a good chance I've had some potential predators at night try and fail, resulting in some missing scales and torn fins, etc... as we do live near woods and hear the raccoons fighting often. No koi are missing and I've not found any animal tracks or droppings. Hawks do swoop low often around our pond and owls have been notorious in previous ponds for taking 18"+ fish.

      I was wondering if on Koiphen where the wealth of knowledge seems to be at its fullest on these issues, someone might have a bit of insight into what is going on? My water levels aren't immaculate -my ph is 9. Ammonia is low but present - the lowest my drop test will show and the other parameters are great. KH and GH are 240 or higher, etc... They are getting more than enough aeration as I have a bottom drain diffuser in place, a bakki shower and another 1750lph air stone diffusing. There is a slow circulating current in the pond at the moment. Are they stressed because they're being gently persuaded around the pond? They seem to play in the jet stream at times and act otherwise very happy. They're hungry as can be and I've had to try and limit feeding them - though they're eating Hikari Wheat Germ food as well as Kenzen, which states they can be fed early.

      Our temperatures are between 40-65 degrees farenheit regularly through the week. Sunny and 60 is not uncommon the last week and even today.

      Not sure what's got my koi's panties in a bunch but they've been jumping out of the pond several times a piece and flashing. I know they're hungry and there are bugs skimming the top of the water so I haven't ruled that out but it doesn't explain the flashing.

      One last note - I did add pond guy's pond salt to my pond this year. I've never done it before. I only increased the salinity to 990ppm - still very low as I understand.

      Thanks for thinking with me.

    2. #2
      Asagibottom is offline Senior Member
      is Going going goners
       
      Feeling:
      Amused
       
      Join Date
      May 2018
      Location
      Nowhere
      Posts
      349
      Name:  Koi1.jpg
Views: 200
Size:  106.9 KBName:  Koi2.jpg
Views: 203
Size:  110.8 KBName:  Koi3.jpg
Views: 201
Size:  115.0 KB

    3. #3
      Asagibottom is offline Senior Member
      is Going going goners
       
      Feeling:
      Amused
       
      Join Date
      May 2018
      Location
      Nowhere
      Posts
      349
      I know she's not the best looking Shusui. I got her and love her for a breeder. She's got good genetics. She's a fast grower and has good color. Not good scalation though.

    4. #4
      Asagibottom is offline Senior Member
      is Going going goners
       
      Feeling:
      Amused
       
      Join Date
      May 2018
      Location
      Nowhere
      Posts
      349
      In the first picture, you can see the "algae growth" on her side near her lateral line

    5. #5
      RichToyBox's Avatar
      RichToyBox is offline Administrator ~
      Koi Health Care Committee Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Sandston, VA
      Posts
      13,926
      Though you didn't give us all of the answers to the numbers for ammonia, nitrite, pH, and temperature, you have given more than most. The air temperatures don't really tell us much about what the water temperature is, and it is the water that the fish are living in, so it is the important one.

      The green (algae growth) is usually a sign of sap fungus which has trapped algae within its spores. The flashing is most likely parasites and if you have a microscope, it is always a good practice to scrape the fish to see who is irritating the fish and that also gives the best possible treatment, but without a scope, then the next best thing is a shotgun treatment to kill everything. For this shotgun, start with Proform C or similar formalin/malachite green formulation which will kill most of the microscopic parasites and fungus. This is a 3 day treatment with a treatment every day with a 25% water change each day before the treatment, and follow with a fluke treatment, like Fluke M or Prazi allowing this treatment to remain for a minimum of a week with no water changes. If water temperatures are below 50F, the formalin /malachite green treatment cannot be used, so you may need to wait a few days before starting. I would also get and have on hand Tricide Neo antibiotic treatment so that if there are wounds/ulcers treatment can be started early. It is not uncommon at this time of the year that the bellies of fish which have been staying pretty much stationary in contact with the pond bottom will show sores which need to be treated.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    6. #6
      Asagibottom is offline Senior Member
      is Going going goners
       
      Feeling:
      Amused
       
      Join Date
      May 2018
      Location
      Nowhere
      Posts
      349
      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      Though you didn't give us all of the answers to the numbers for ammonia, nitrite, pH, and temperature, you have given more than most. The air temperatures don't really tell us much about what the water temperature is, and it is the water that the fish are living in, so it is the important one.

      The green (algae growth) is usually a sign of sap fungus which has trapped algae within its spores. The flashing is most likely parasites and if you have a microscope, it is always a good practice to scrape the fish to see who is irritating the fish and that also gives the best possible treatment, but without a scope, then the next best thing is a shotgun treatment to kill everything. For this shotgun, start with Proform C or similar formalin/malachite green formulation which will kill most of the microscopic parasites and fungus. This is a 3 day treatment with a treatment every day with a 25% water change each day before the treatment, and follow with a fluke treatment, like Fluke M or Prazi allowing this treatment to remain for a minimum of a week with no water changes. If water temperatures are below 50F, the formalin /malachite green treatment cannot be used, so you may need to wait a few days before starting. I would also get and have on hand Tricide Neo antibiotic treatment so that if there are wounds/ulcers treatment can be started early. It is not uncommon at this time of the year that the bellies of fish which have been staying pretty much stationary in contact with the pond bottom will show sores which need to be treated.
      The water temps are between 45 degrees farenheit and 60. It fluctuates slightly through the day and night. Through the week, itís changed by up to a few degrees a day. The aeration assists that and being in full sun does as well.

      Ammonia is .25ppm - I understand PH exacerbates the effects of ammonia. Nitrites and Nitrates 0. Am doing a partial water change now. I think the ammonia has just been creeping up faster than the filters can convert.

      I will start a shotgun tomorrow after a scrape and scope. I was trying to avoid a scope if I could- not the most pleasurable experience as I am norm the best at identifying parasites. Next investment will Be a microscope with a camera.


      I did post PH.
      Thanks for your advice. Will post updates as soon as I know more
      Last edited by Asagibottom; 04-05-2020 at 09:04 PM.

    7. #7
      Hope J is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2019
      Location
      Georgia
      Posts
      650
      Quote Originally Posted by Asagibottom View Post
      I know she's not the best looking Shusui. I got her and love her for a breeder. She's got good genetics. She's a fast grower and has good color. Not good scalation though.
      I can't offer help on the problems but I was actually thinking this was a pretty decent/interesting Shusui. Almost in between Shusui and Asagi with a cool Zipper

    8. #8
      Asagibottom is offline Senior Member
      is Going going goners
       
      Feeling:
      Amused
       
      Join Date
      May 2018
      Location
      Nowhere
      Posts
      349
      Quote Originally Posted by Hope J View Post
      I can't offer help on the problems but I was actually thinking this was a pretty decent/interesting Shusui. Almost in between Shusui and Asagi with a cool Zipper
      Thanks Hope! She was a $40 fish off of Koi To the World a couple years ago. My wife and I were just looking at her pictures and thinking we might spawn her with our asagi as her skin and body conformation, growth and color is spot on for an asagi. Her scaling, not so much but we might get a few keepers out of the mix

    9. #9
      Hope J is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2019
      Location
      Georgia
      Posts
      650
      Quote Originally Posted by Asagibottom View Post
      Thanks Hope! She was a $40 fish off of Koi To the World a couple years ago. My wife and I were just looking at her pictures and thinking we might spawn her with our asagi as her skin and body conformation, growth and color is spot on for an asagi. Her scaling, not so much but we might get a few keepers out of the mix
      Go for it! You did good!

    10. #10
      KoiRun's Avatar
      KoiRun is online now Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Nov 2015
      Location
      Mississauga, Ontario
      Posts
      2,051
      With any new pond start up you have to keep track of two things. One is a ph swing and the other is temperature swing. Ph swing should be ideally .3 or less and temperature swing of 6f or less. These swings will keep stressing your koi and filter. Swings get pretty bad in the spring because inherently, well, it's spring. PH of 9 is too high. What is causing this high ph is likely the exponential growth of algae this time of the year. Filter competing with algae is not great at this time because 1) your pond is not mature and 2) your filter is not mature. Don't add salt as this will hinder your filter from maturing. Also your last barrel going to the pond should not be a moving bed. Moving bed flakes off muck with potential parasites that will end up under the koi scale. Koi this time of the year are stressed due to swings and don't need this. I'd suggest monitor for these swings. If you see large swings, a partial cover will help in blocking the sun and blocking the cool wind. Without these large swings bumps will clear up own their own as filters mature and swings lessen going into the summer.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin

      KoiRun on YouTube, latest video:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upoQYgRpPk8&t=134s


    11. #11
      icu2's Avatar
      icu2 is online now Administrator ~ WWKC Treasurer
      is is old and cranky
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2007
      Location
      Poulsbo, WA
      Posts
      30,224
      Quote Originally Posted by Asagibottom View Post
      The water temps are between 45 degrees farenheit and 60. It fluctuates slightly through the day and night. Through the week, it’s changed by up to a few degrees a day. The aeration assists that and being in full sun does as well.

      Ammonia is .25ppm - I understand PH exacerbates the effects of ammonia. Nitrites and Nitrates 0. Am doing a partial water change now. I think the ammonia has just been creeping up faster than the filters can convert.

      I will start a shotgun tomorrow after a scrape and scope. I was trying to avoid a scope if I could- not the most pleasurable experience as I am norm the best at identifying parasites. Next investment will Be a microscope with a camera.


      I did post PH.
      Thanks for your advice. Will post updates as soon as I know more
      Test the pH in the early morning and then again in the late evening and compare the two.
      The "swing" between the two numbers is what sometimes can cause a lot of stress as opposed
      to if the pH is a constant 9.
      Also, any NH3 ammonia is going to be more lethal at a higher pH.
      --Steve


      In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave,
      and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him,
      for then it costs nothing to be a patriot.

      ---Mark Twain

    12. #12
      Asagibottom is offline Senior Member
      is Going going goners
       
      Feeling:
      Amused
       
      Join Date
      May 2018
      Location
      Nowhere
      Posts
      349
      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Test the pH in the early morning and then again in the late evening and compare the two.
      The "swing" between the two numbers is what sometimes can cause a lot of stress as opposed
      to if the pH is a constant 9.
      Also, any NH3 ammonia is going to be more lethal at a higher pH.


      Didn’t even think of that. The PH shouldn’t swing too much with the KH being so high? I do notice the koi flash and jump more in the mid day

    13. #13
      Asagibottom is offline Senior Member
      is Going going goners
       
      Feeling:
      Amused
       
      Join Date
      May 2018
      Location
      Nowhere
      Posts
      349
      Good call icu2. My ph is as of 8:30am between 7.5 and 8.

      Ammonia is .25 ppm even after last night’s 15% water change. Seems the buggers had a little party overnight. What I imagine I need is some pond cover and more filtration. Things I was planning to do anyway. The algae on the sides and in scales is likely a bacterial infection or parasite that is harmless. Will continue to monitor after I make improvements to the pond. If it gets worse, then I’ll shotgun.

    14. #14
      Asagibottom is offline Senior Member
      is Going going goners
       
      Feeling:
      Amused
       
      Join Date
      May 2018
      Location
      Nowhere
      Posts
      349
      This all started too when I took a broom to my settling chamber to try and clean it while it flushed. I shook out any filter media in the water as it drained. I’m wondering if I dislodged some of last year’s waste and caused an ammonia spike?

    15. #15
      icu2's Avatar
      icu2 is online now Administrator ~ WWKC Treasurer
      is is old and cranky
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2007
      Location
      Poulsbo, WA
      Posts
      30,224
      Quote Originally Posted by Asagibottom View Post
      This all started too when I took a broom to my settling chamber to try and clean it while it flushed. I shook out any filter media in the water as it drained. Iím wondering if I dislodged some of last yearís waste and caused an ammonia spike?
      Yes, it could have created the ammonia or released hydrogen sulfide.
      Be sure to test your source water too so you know what you're adding to the pond when doing water changes.
      Are you on a municipal water supply? You drained the pond down when you worked on the BD clog... did you use
      a dechlorinator when you refilled?

      So as opposed to a full jump from the water it's more of breach like this? Do you see them blow bubbles from their
      gills afterwards?

      --Steve


      In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave,
      and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him,
      for then it costs nothing to be a patriot.

      ---Mark Twain

    16. #16
      RichToyBox's Avatar
      RichToyBox is offline Administrator ~
      Koi Health Care Committee Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Sandston, VA
      Posts
      13,926
      Koirun mentioned the effect of the algae on the pH. In the spring, the filters have not had the level of ammonia to build an adequate number of ammonia eating bacteria, and the fish are starting to get active and we are starting to feed, making for increased ammonia. The preferred food for algae is ammonia, so you get a large increase in algae, which is not all bad as it is consuming some of the ammonia to be able to grow and multiply. The same ammonia that the filter is not mature enough to process, so with lower ammonia numbers, the fish are safer, but algae using photosynthesis is consuming carbon dioxide and releasing oxygen during daylight hours and this reduction in carbon dioxide (carbolic acid) is increasing the pH to very high numbers. At night the reactions reverse and the algae consumes oxygen and releases carbon dioxide lowering the pH.

      The addition of calcium chloride, pool hardness increaser, will put calcium ions in the water to react with the carbon dioxide in the water and create calcium carbonate, (limestone, calcite, chalk, ...) which will precipitate out and not affect the pH stabilizing the high pH at about 8.3. Calcium chloride when added to water generates a lot of heat, so premix in a bucket before adding to the pond.

      To help stabilize the temperature, you can use one or more large aquarium heaters with the thermostat set at the lowest setting, and if the pond gets warmer than that the heater will turn off but as the pond cools it will come back on to help prevent major downward falls.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    17. #17
      Asagibottom is offline Senior Member
      is Going going goners
       
      Feeling:
      Amused
       
      Join Date
      May 2018
      Location
      Nowhere
      Posts
      349
      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Yes, it could have created the ammonia or released hydrogen sulfide.
      Be sure to test your source water too so you know what you're adding to the pond when doing water changes.
      Are you on a municipal water supply? You drained the pond down when you worked on the BD clog... did you use
      a dechlorinator when you refilled?

      So as opposed to a full jump from the water it's more of breach like this? Do you see them blow bubbles from their
      gills afterwards?

      Yeah, sometimes it does look like that. I have noticed bubbles as well. One of mine will come up not only once though but twice in a row and then go down. He's been hanging out toward the bottom a lot and swimming by himself- which is unusual. He seems happy but then there's the flashing occasionally too. I may have more than one issue going on. We've had some sunny days too. Sunburn? Trying to narrow it down as this is a new pond build (sort of) and spring is difficult.

    18. #18
      Asagibottom is offline Senior Member
      is Going going goners
       
      Feeling:
      Amused
       
      Join Date
      May 2018
      Location
      Nowhere
      Posts
      349
      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      Koirun mentioned the effect of the algae on the pH. In the spring, the filters have not had the level of ammonia to build an adequate number of ammonia eating bacteria, and the fish are starting to get active and we are starting to feed, making for increased ammonia. The preferred food for algae is ammonia, so you get a large increase in algae, which is not all bad as it is consuming some of the ammonia to be able to grow and multiply. The same ammonia that the filter is not mature enough to process, so with lower ammonia numbers, the fish are safer, but algae using photosynthesis is consuming carbon dioxide and releasing oxygen during daylight hours and this reduction in carbon dioxide (carbolic acid) is increasing the pH to very high numbers. At night the reactions reverse and the algae consumes oxygen and releases carbon dioxide lowering the pH.

      The addition of calcium chloride, pool hardness increaser, will put calcium ions in the water to react with the carbon dioxide in the water and create calcium carbonate, (limestone, calcite, chalk, ...) which will precipitate out and not affect the pH stabilizing the high pH at about 8.3. Calcium chloride when added to water generates a lot of heat, so premix in a bucket before adding to the pond.

      To help stabilize the temperature, you can use one or more large aquarium heaters with the thermostat set at the lowest setting, and if the pond gets warmer than that the heater will turn off but as the pond cools it will come back on to help prevent major downward falls.
      Thanks Rich, I didn't consider the algae before and the effect it has on the filters and PH. I've got a lot of aeration throughout the day but it seems like a catch22 until the filters are established. The koi didn't breach the water today that I noticed, though I was out much less and I didn't see any flashing. It was cloudy and the PH was stabilized around 7.5-8. I think that solidifies the problem- high PH swings due to algae and sunlight. I'm building a deck over the pond tomorrow. Went and got materials yesterday. We'll see what happens!

    19. #19
      KoiRun's Avatar
      KoiRun is online now Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Nov 2015
      Location
      Mississauga, Ontario
      Posts
      2,051
      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      Koirun mentioned the effect of the algae on the pH. In the spring, the filters have not had the level of ammonia to build an adequate number of ammonia eating bacteria, and the fish are starting to get active and we are starting to feed, making for increased ammonia. The preferred food for algae is ammonia, so you get a large increase in algae, which is not all bad as it is consuming some of the ammonia to be able to grow and multiply. The same ammonia that the filter is not mature enough to process, so with lower ammonia numbers, the fish are safer, but algae using photosynthesis is consuming carbon dioxide and releasing oxygen during daylight hours and this reduction in carbon dioxide (carbolic acid) is increasing the pH to very high numbers. At night the reactions reverse and the algae consumes oxygen and releases carbon dioxide lowering the pH.

      The addition of calcium chloride, pool hardness increaser, will put calcium ions in the water to react with the carbon dioxide in the water and create calcium carbonate, (limestone, calcite, chalk, ...) which will precipitate out and not affect the pH stabilizing the high pH at about 8.3. Calcium chloride when added to water generates a lot of heat, so premix in a bucket before adding to the pond.

      To help stabilize the temperature, you can use one or more large aquarium heaters with the thermostat set at the lowest setting, and if the pond gets warmer than that the heater will turn off but as the pond cools it will come back on to help prevent major downward falls.
      Thanks Rich,

      'Couldn't have put it any better.

      For anyone who would like to see the effect of algae first hand try this fun experiment: scrape some algae , put the algae in a small clear glass container with pond water and sit it out under the sun. Leave that a few hours in the sun then check the ph. You should see the ph skyrocket.

      Next step is to see the effect of carbon dioxide on Ph and KH: Blow (with a straw - blow not sip!) into that same container. Blowing into the water would put CO2 into the solution. See the KH and ph come down. KH and ph should bottom out.

      For those of you who are essential workers and actually don't have time to this experiment here is an achieve of my experiment:
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...periment-input
      Last edited by KoiRun; 04-07-2020 at 09:08 AM.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin

      KoiRun on YouTube, latest video:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upoQYgRpPk8&t=134s


    20. #20
      Asagibottom is offline Senior Member
      is Going going goners
       
      Feeling:
      Amused
       
      Join Date
      May 2018
      Location
      Nowhere
      Posts
      349
      Welp, here is the latest on my koi issues...

      Found out this gal (bought her late in the fall, and quarantined 2 weeks) has a mild start of dropsy on his tail in 2 places and behind the gills. We caught it quick. This is she who was lethargic and resting at the bottom, not eating for days. Swimming circles around the pond. Now I know she was trying to stay in the shade and keep moving. I've got her quarantined once again with impeccable water conditions. She's set up in a 300 gallon stock tank with 0 ammonia and a good shower filter. No ulcers or anything to speak of. Kidney failure? Salt seems to help slightly as I've noticed the scales begin to recede.

      Name:  60804905916__28D51BA2-F967-4AC2-8259-FB103EF75E6A.jpg
Views: 110
Size:  118.0 KB

      I took a scrape and this is what I find... a good clean scrape of the slime coat with nothing to speak of except this... Any ideas?

      Name:  image1.jpg
Views: 108
Size:  6.0 KBName:  image0.jpg
Views: 109
Size:  5.1 KB

    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •