• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
    Results 1 to 20 of 40

    Thread: Wasting Disease

    1. #1
      CatsnKoi is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2019
      Location
      Orlando, Florida
      Posts
      17

      Wasting Disease

      Please help! My koi are not eating, for weeks, months, and are wasting away. Their mouth is always wide open. Sometimes i have seen them smell the food, but they will not eat. I need to figure this out quickly, or I guess I will be out of the koikeeping hobby.

      CatsnKoi

    2. #2
      ademink's Avatar
      ademink is offline Supporting Member ~ Koi Health Care Committee Member
      is Still loving Red Label!
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2005
      Location
      Indianapolis, IN
      Posts
      3,201
      Do their gills look swollen or puffy also? If so, my initial instinct is that they have gill flukes. Can you get a picture? Also, please provide:

      Pond gallons

      Testing results for:
      Ammonia
      Nitrite
      pH
      KH
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member



    3. #3
      CatsnKoi is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2019
      Location
      Orlando, Florida
      Posts
      17
      Hi, Andrea,

      Thank you for your quick response.

      I have an 8,500 gallon pond that has been a successful pond since putting it in in 2001. I am on well water with a 24/7 flow in and out to two bog gardens. I have a vortex, a 4.4 Aquadyne bead filter, and a biofalls leading to the waterfall. I also have two air diffusers at the bottom. My pH is a little high at 8.0, but they seem to get used to that. Ammonia remains at zero as the total pond water is probably replaced weekly. I did test the KH many year ago and it was high at about 230, i think. I haven't tested that in quite a while, and do not have a way to test it at the moment.

      Late last year I euthanized two of my nice koi as I could not bear to see them waste away any further. One was a beautiful Showa I got in 2012. The other was a very large doitsu yellow koi of over 10 years. She started out very full of eggs. In probably three months (I regret I was not keeping closer tabs on things), she had lost all her egg weight and at the end was sunken in behind her head on both sides of the backbone. I did not notice swelling of the gill plates.

      Now, my very special Inazuma Kohaku is showing these symptoms. She is listless at the surface, not eating, and has her mouth wide open all the time. I do have enough praziquantel for a 7-day treatment of the whole pond. Should I go ahead and get thaty started?

      I will try to transfer pictures from my phone to my computer so that I can send them later.

      Thank you,
      Kim

    4. #4
      Marilyn's Avatar
      Marilyn is offline Supporting Member ~ Koi Health Care Committee Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2008
      Location
      happy in the Heartland! 46071
      Posts
      17,283
      Hi Kim,

      I'm going to second what Andrea said and request you provide water parameters. You can usually get the tests at an aquarium/pet store. They may even have an API Master Pond test kit which would be very good. That way, all you would need to do is supplement it with the KH test kit as an individual purchase. You need an ammonia test, a nitrite test, a high range pH test and a KH test.

      My thoughts are that a severe parasitic issue would likely be causing more issues than that of wasting away while poor water quality can have koi linger for a long time. Please start with the water parameters.
      Once we affirm that your water will promote healing, we can better guide you on possible medications. There is much discussion that Prazi has drastically lost its efficacy in treating flukes. There are far better and more reliable (and less expensive, I believe) medications available.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    5. #5
      CatsnKoi is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2019
      Location
      Orlando, Florida
      Posts
      17
      Thank you, Marilyn,

      This will require me to go out under this stay-at-home order. I will also probably need to get the koi out of the pond and into a holding tank. I'll be working on this toiday.

      Kim

    6. #6
      CatsnKoi is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2019
      Location
      Orlando, Florida
      Posts
      17
      Hi, Marilyn,

      I also have enough Microbe-Lift Broad Spectrum for a good 3-day treatment of the pond. But my albino ki-goi seems to be alergic to that, so I would have to get her out of the pond first. Any thoughts.

      Thank you,
      Kim

    7. #7
      Marilyn's Avatar
      Marilyn is offline Supporting Member ~ Koi Health Care Committee Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2008
      Location
      happy in the Heartland! 46071
      Posts
      17,283
      Kim, this is tough as we actually have very little to go on other than refusal to eat and wasting. That can be so many things and has been going on for months.

      While I've not used the Microblift product, my understanding of it is that it is a malachite green/formalin mix and I'm unaware of fish having allergies to that. Was there salt in the pond when you used it? Was there lots of aeration? Is there a chance you overdosed or that she went through an area where the medication wasn't mixed into the water well?
      We regularly use MG/F mixed products and the only time I have seen issues is when there was a "hot spot" and I've heard of fish losses when it is combined with salt. We never use it with salt above .1.

      I honestly believe the best place to start is addressing possible water issues and ruling them out. Fish have an amazing ability to heal under the proper circumstances but the key is isolate the issue. Fish that have been fighting either water condition issues or possible health issues are not ideal candidates for shotgun treatments as they are much weakened by now.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    8. #8
      CatsnKoi is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2019
      Location
      Orlando, Florida
      Posts
      17
      Hi, Andrea and Marilyn,

      Here are my water test results: KH = 200 ppm (11 to 12 drops); Ammonia = 0.25 ppm (actually more than I had thought - two-week filter cleaning is tomorrow); High pH = 8.2; Nitrite (NO2) = 0 ppm; Nitrate (NO3) = 0 ppm.

      I was very careful with the tests.

      Was only able to get one picture transferred right now. The inazuma kohaku is in the middle of the picture.

      Kim

      Name:  IMG_0071.jpg
Views: 150
Size:  111.5 KB

    9. #9
      Marilyn's Avatar
      Marilyn is offline Supporting Member ~ Koi Health Care Committee Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2008
      Location
      happy in the Heartland! 46071
      Posts
      17,283
      Thanks for providing the test results.
      Something is amok if they are not eating, you've got an ammonia reading and you've got that many fish in 8500 gallons.

      Can you do the same test on your source water, please?
      Btw, I would be cleaning your filter once a week.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    10. #10
      CatsnKoi is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2019
      Location
      Orlando, Florida
      Posts
      17
      Hi, again, Marilyn,

      Yes, I do have 11 good size koi in the pond - they are all in the picture. Three of them will be going to a new home after this pandemic is under control. But that could be many months. I will do the tests on my well water later tonight and again in the morning. Tomorrow I will be putting the kohaku into a hospital tank with air. And guess I will up my filter cleaning schedule.

      Thank you,
      Kim

    11. #11
      Hope J is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2019
      Location
      Georgia
      Posts
      650
      Could it be Gill Flukes?

    12. #12
      Marilyn's Avatar
      Marilyn is offline Supporting Member ~ Koi Health Care Committee Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2008
      Location
      happy in the Heartland! 46071
      Posts
      17,283
      Quote Originally Posted by Hope J View Post
      Could it be Gill Flukes?
      Of course.
      It could also be bacterial gill disease and a number of other things.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    13. #13
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Southeast Virginia
      Posts
      2,868
      You said you have bog filters.

      Hydrogen sulfide gas from bog filters could also be a possibility.
      Nancy



    14. #14
      CatsnKoi is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2019
      Location
      Orlando, Florida
      Posts
      17
      Hello Everyone,

      Just quickly, my bog gardens don't feed back into the pond. They are entirely separate. I have not used salt in the pond or QT.

      After testing my well water a couple of times, I find that I do have some ammonia in there when there should be none. This is a major concern. We have not had rain to amount to anything here in Orlando since before November, I think. It could be that the well is drying up or that there is something leaking into it. The KH is a bit higher than the pond tested at about 230 ppm. Another concern is the pH. I thought the well water's pH was around 8.0, but it tested at only 7.4. I don't understand that.

      Anyway, today was not a good day for me to try to round up koi for the QT. I will certainly have to do that tomorrow. I want to be able to look in the koi's mouth and also to check the gills. Several people have suggested that gill flukes, or worse, gill bactertia, may be the problem. I certainly hope that is not the problem. After I get the koi into the QT, I will do the treatment with Broad Spectrum, as it says it will kill gill flukes. All of my koi are more stressed, flashing, coming up for air, than I have ever noticed. My idea now is to get an ammonia remover for the pond and not to run well water into the pond like I was doing, but only a small spray to keep the pond topped up.

      Any thoughts will be much appreciated.

      Kim




      I stopped well water going into the pond last night (Monday night). This morning (Tuesday) I cleaned all the filters and only used the well water to top up the pond.

    15. #15
      icu2's Avatar
      icu2 is online now Administrator ~ WWKC Treasurer
      is is old and cranky
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2007
      Location
      Poulsbo, WA
      Posts
      30,222
      Sounds like good starts. Don't feel alone about well water having ammonia too... I'm on a well and was
      amazed to see the same, and mine will vary through out the year. Marilyn and Andrea are great sources of info.
      Good luck on your mission to get to the bottom of this problem.
      --Steve


      In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave,
      and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him,
      for then it costs nothing to be a patriot.

      ---Mark Twain

    16. #16
      Marilyn's Avatar
      Marilyn is offline Supporting Member ~ Koi Health Care Committee Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2008
      Location
      happy in the Heartland! 46071
      Posts
      17,283
      Glad you checked the well water. Please specify the test value as it will be helpful.
      Use an ammonia binder for the koi and make sure you are binding the ammonia. I think you've had ammonia going into the pond for a while and just did not know it.

      We are also on a well and when professionally tested, the ammonia reading we got was 1.4ppm ammonia. We invested in a complicated and expensive system to strip the ammonia out since we are in the koi business. I'm not sure it is worth it for a hobbyist.
      For a single pond, I think it is likely better to just make sure you always treat for the ammonia you have present and are introducing. Make sure to test your well water fairly frequently so you're binding adequately.

      Regarding low pH from the well, well water is often very low in pH until air is added. Then it usually rises into a range more like what you thought it was. An easy way to remedy this is to aerate the water as it is added to the pond. Get an aerator for the garden hose you run to the pond. I think that is how most do it. Hopefully others will chime in, our system means we don't have to do this.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    17. #17
      kdh is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2011
      Location
      up north
      Posts
      7,881
      8500 gallon pond with well water at 7.4 and pond at 8.0 is nothing to even worry about. 8.0 is a good number. Most wells have low ph due to carbon dioxide. Spray a mist of water from nozzle a couple of feet away into container and see what you get when testing for ph.
      Last edited by kdh; 03-31-2020 at 11:28 PM.

    18. #18
      CatsnKoi is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2019
      Location
      Orlando, Florida
      Posts
      17
      Thank you to everyone for your advice and encouragement. My well water tested 0.5 ppm in ammonia. I will be testing much more often now. I'm glad not to have to worry too much about the pH levels. I'll get the koi some ammonia binder in the morning as soon as I can.

      Kim

    19. #19
      RichToyBox's Avatar
      RichToyBox is offline Administrator ~
      Koi Health Care Committee Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Sandston, VA
      Posts
      13,926
      If you are stopping the flow through of well water and allowing the filters to do all of the filtration, rather than relying on some dilution, I would treat the entire pond system with the BSDT, and not just a QT facility. You mention "All of my koi are more stressed, flashing, coming up for air, than I have ever noticed", which can be a sign of parasites and if one has them then they all have it. I would get the ammonia down to zero for a few days to see if the activity settles back down to where it normally was before trying to treat with anything for parasites, though. You can find an SeaChem Ammonia Alert Card at many aquarium/pet shops and it will let you know when or if you need to add additional amounts of ammonia blocker.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    20. #20
      Hope J is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2019
      Location
      Georgia
      Posts
      650
      Quote Originally Posted by CatsnKoi View Post
      Thank you to everyone for your advice and encouragement. My well water tested 0.5 ppm in ammonia. I will be testing much more often now. I'm glad not to have to worry too much about the pH levels. I'll get the koi some ammonia binder in the morning as soon as I can.

      Kim
      Have you had any luck getting them to eat? I sometimes mix my pellets in a cup with Anchovie Paste and they really go nuts over it, plus it's high in Guanine which boosts the immune system and helps repair mRNA to keep them healthy.

    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Tags for this Thread

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •