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    Thread: Tancho Sanke Issues

    1. #101
      berkokid is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      I have been concerned that it never fully resolved. That she arrived with parasites and was already exhibiting issues isn't good. Internal infections can resolve but the best case scenario is when they are free of other complications and treated expeditiously. You did the best you could for her but you were up against it with this one, I'm afraid.
      All fair feedback. Im going to talk with the vet simply because she asked me to let her know how things go and then unless she has a different recommendation, I’ll put her down. I’ll report back!
      - Jonathan
      - aka "Berko"

    2. #102
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      Quote Originally Posted by berkokid View Post
      while I don't disagree the thing that's bugging me is how actively she's swimming and eating.
      This would bug me too. I guess she doesn't feel sick enough not to eat but does not know any better; often gut rules the brain, not the other way around. I would drastically reduce the amount fed to perhaps 1 pellet per day if that. It is not for nutrition but as a check up of her mood and how she feels. Koi can last several days and weeks without eating even if they are sick. I would focus on water quality. I don't think you've described your QT, filters and water quality. Posting those and picture of your QT would help many.
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    3. #103
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      This would bug me too. I guess she doesn't feel sick enough not to eat but does not know any better; often gut rules the brain, not the other way around. I would drastically reduce the amount fed to perhaps 1 pellet per day if that. It is not for nutrition but as a check up of her mood and how she feels. Koi can last several days and weeks without eating even if they are sick. I would focus on water quality. I don't think you've described your QT, filters and water quality. Posting those and picture of your QT would help many.
      I know you mean well but this koi arrived severely compromised. I'm sympathetic to getting an overview of the OP's setup but it really isn't necessary. Illustrative for others, perhaps, but it is kind of asking a lot for a guy that has been through the ringer with this situation to be a teacher for others right now IMO.
      I disagree with denying food though lighter feedings aren't a bad idea. Koi that aren't well need the boost that food can give them and was why I recommended medicated food from the start.

      Berko, if you want to keep working with this girl, I would skip any baths and do an in tank treatment of oxolinic acid. For the pure oxolinic acid, this would be .1 grams of oxolinic acid per ton/250 gallons of water. The water must be at 74-77 degrees. Maintain this for three days then do a very large water change. You can repeat once but maintain the water at 74 for the course of treatment. The salt level should also be at .6 throughout.

      Good luck and best wishes.
      Last edited by Marilyn; 03-06-2020 at 05:45 PM. Reason: add text
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    4. #104
      berkokid is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      I know you mean well but this koi arrived severely compromised. I'm sympathetic to getting an overview of the OP's setup but it really isn't necessary. Illustrative for others, perhaps, but it is kind of asking a lot for a guy that has been through the ringer with this situation to be a teacher for others right now IMO.
      I disagree with denying food though lighter feedings aren't a bad idea. Koi that aren't well need the boost that food can give them and was why I recommended medicated food from the start.

      Berko, if you want to keep working with this girl, I would skip any baths and do an in tank treatment of oxolinic acid. For the pure oxolinic acid, this would be .1 grams of oxolinic acid per ton/250 gallons of water. The water must be at 74-77 degrees. Maintain this for three days then do a very large water change. You can repeat once but maintain the water at 74 for the course of treatment. The salt level should also be at .6 throughout.

      Good luck and best wishes.
      Thanks, so I spoke with the vet again. She gave me another course of anti-biotics at no cost. She basically shares the opinion of this group (she read this thread) that this fish is likely not saveable, but since I have the QT space, and we agreed together to try this, she’d like to see what happens.

      KoiRun:
      150g Rubbermaid with an Oase 5000 fed by submersible. It’s indoor, heated so I can control temps. I regularly change water.
      I have a full flight of various medications and water treatment chemicals available. Elbagin, Oxo, Fluke-M, BSDT, Debride, PP, clove oil, etc.
      I have a 20g blue tub I fill part way for bath-based treatments.
      I use a sock net to transport the fish to / from QT to bath.
      I keep a couple of large clear plastic bags used to ship fish on hand and occasionally bag a fish to be able to hold it over my head to inspect its belly without having to sedate.
      I’ve got a scope, a couple of scales to measure chemicals
      I’m 5’9” and a Capricorn wooo!

      Ammonia: 0
      Nitrites: 0
      Nitrates: 40ppm or less
      KH: 160-180
      PH: 7.8
      - Jonathan
      - aka "Berko"

    5. #105
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      Judging by the water parameters, you have a mature filter. Wouldn't an in-pond treatment kill or set set back this filter causing unstable water parameters and foaming?
      I would go ahead with another course of emperical antibiotic treatment as per your vet or as described in the sticky section described by KoiValley. It is important that you'd be there and not skip a dose. Use intraperitoneal route using 3cc 25g 5/8 - 1" needle. Sedate with clove oil. With a distended abdomen like that there might be back pressure at the injection site that might tend to eject the medication back out so you might want to put a gentle pressure at the needle site as you remove the needle. Keep your finger pressed there for a minute.
      I am wondering if your vet might be interested in draining that abdomen before the injection regimen begins if your vet thinks there is an accumulation of fluid in there.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin

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    6. #106
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      Judging by the water parameters, you have a mature filter. Wouldn't an in-pond treatment kill or set set back this filter causing unstable water parameters and foaming?
      I would go ahead with another course of emperical antibiotic treatment as per your vet or as described in the sticky section described by KoiValley. It is important that you'd be there and not skip a dose. Use intraperitoneal route using 3cc 25g 5/8 - 1" needle. Sedate with clove oil. With a distended abdomen like that there might be back pressure at the injection site that might tend to eject the medication back out so you might want to put a gentle pressure at the needle site as you remove the needle. Keep your finger pressed there for a minute.
      I am wondering if your vet might be interested in draining that abdomen before the injection regimen begins if your vet thinks there is an accumulation of fluid in there.
      Yes, an in tank treatment can make bio filtration stumble at the level I recommended but we were discussing alternatives to euthanasia. It seemed a worthwhile byproduct if Berko was considering carrying on to try and save this koi. Tanks typically show slight ammonia for a couple of days then the filters are back to normal once the product is out.

      Btw, another course of antibiotics can pose its own risk as you are breaching the skin of the koi and handling an already stressed koi. It's not uncommon to see some area trauma with doing injections, it's just that the benefits potentially outweigh the risk. It's the same with an in tank treatment.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    7. #107
      berkokid is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      Judging by the water parameters, you have a mature filter. Wouldn't an in-pond treatment kill or set set back this filter causing unstable water parameters and foaming?
      I would go ahead with another course of emperical antibiotic treatment as per your vet or as described in the sticky section described by KoiValley. It is important that you'd be there and not skip a dose. Use intraperitoneal route using 3cc 25g 5/8 - 1" needle. Sedate with clove oil. With a distended abdomen like that there might be back pressure at the injection site that might tend to eject the medication back out so you might want to put a gentle pressure at the needle site as you remove the needle. Keep your finger pressed there for a minute.
      I am wondering if your vet might be interested in draining that abdomen before the injection regimen begins if your vet thinks there is an accumulation of fluid in there.
      Yes it is a mature QT that’s always cycled.

      Keep in mind, in order to maintain a healthy biological balance in the QT I have been using dips, as opposed to bombarding the entire QT and water volume with meds. To Marylin’s point, if I continue to play around with this fish, it may be that I need to change that, we will see.

      And yes, Marylin, I agree with your point about the injection site having it’s own risks. I realize that’s a thing.

      I do wonder if I should go back to salt in the QT to relieve burden on the kidneys - I know you recommended that with the Oxolinic acid in tank. I was thinking Oxo in tank and injections at the same time might be too much ... thoughts?
      - Jonathan
      - aka "Berko"

    8. #108
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      I would be doing the second course of injections with the salt and oxo in the tank. If you're going for it, I would use what you've got to get a result.

      Btw, my comment on the injections and site penetration wasn't really for you. I know you're fully aware as you're living it. That was for those following and sort of general comment. When we intervene there are always risks. That doesn't mean we shouldn't intervene, it means we need to be aware there is no risk free intervention.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    9. #109
      berkokid is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      I would be doing the second course of injections with the salt and oxo in the tank. If you're going for it, I would use what you've got to get a result.

      Btw, my comment on the injections and site penetration wasn't really for you. I know you're fully aware as you're living it. That was for those following and sort of general comment. When we intervene there are always risks. That doesn't mean we shouldn't intervene, it means we need to be aware there is no risk free intervention.
      Thanks for the combo meal advice. On it! Why not, right?
      - Jonathan
      - aka "Berko"

    10. #110
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      Absolutely, in for a penny, in for a pound. Give her the best chance to fully knock back whatever is going on.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    11. #111
      berkokid is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      Absolutely, in for a penny, in for a pound. Give her the best chance to fully knock back whatever is going on.
      Gosh, I just gave her the second shot. 95% of the redness is gone from her belly after one shot. I don’t know as much as many, but I think her kidneys have just failed. The anti-biotics seem to kick the devil out of the infection, but my hypothesis is she can’t live off “life support.”

      We shall see.
      - Jonathan
      - aka "Berko"

    12. #112
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      I'm hoping for the best.
      --Steve


      In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave,
      and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him,
      for then it costs nothing to be a patriot.

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    13. #113
      berkokid is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I'm hoping for the best.
      Thanks Steve! If nothing else, hopefully this is a useful thread. There’s some serious knowledge dropping in here from Marilyn / Russel / kdh / etc.!

      Can’t thank the crew enough.
      - Jonathan
      - aka "Berko"

    14. #114
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      Maybe you well get lucky with this one. Sure hopping so as you are putting up one hick of a good fight. Best of luck.

    15. #115
      berkokid is offline Senior Member
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      just gave her third shot. 100% of the redness is gone. swelling down super significantly .... the saga continues
      - Jonathan
      - aka "Berko"

    16. #116
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      Hoping she does well and it resolves for you.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    17. #117
      berkokid is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      Hoping she does well and it resolves for you.
      Ok, what if I have bad food? Contaminated somehow? The fish eats a lot, swells, gets all the redness, begins to pine cone, stops eating. I notice, give her antibiotics, everything improves and she starts to eat again.

      Anyone buy it?
      - Jonathan
      - aka "Berko"

    18. #118
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      Quote Originally Posted by berkokid View Post
      Ok, what if I have bad food? Contaminated somehow? The fish eats a lot, swells, gets all the redness, begins to pine cone, stops eating. I notice, give her antibiotics, everything improves and she starts to eat again.

      Anyone buy it?
      You might want to reconsider not feeding her at all and to wait and see. This girl is wired all wrong. I would think sick koi on antibiotics can't digest as efficiently. I don't even know why she's eating. For comfort? The thinking is that antibiotics kill normal gut flora and food fed may only be feeding pathogenic ones or perhaps causing partial intestinal blockage. An x-ray would validate this. Either that or a necropsy.
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    19. #119
      berkokid is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      You might want to reconsider not feeding her at all and to wait and see. This girl is wired all wrong. I would think sick koi on antibiotics can't digest as efficiently. I don't even know why she's eating. For comfort? The thinking is that antibiotics kill normal gut flora and food fed may only be feeding pathogenic ones or perhaps causing partial intestinal blockage. An x-ray would validate this. Either that or a necropsy.
      Yeah I don’t feed her while on anti-biotics. It was once she was off and looked great. But I’ve sort of talked myself out of that being possible since she came so sick.
      - Jonathan
      - aka "Berko"

    20. #120
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      Quote Originally Posted by berkokid View Post
      Yeah I donít feed her while on anti-biotics. It was once she was off and looked great. But Iíve sort of talked myself out of that being possible since she came so sick.
      I feed my Koi antibiotics. It is hard to say why this one is acting this way.
      Last edited by Russell Peters; 03-09-2020 at 10:59 AM.
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