It is fine not to feed medicated food at this point but I'm concerned she doesn't seem to be tolerating food without regressing. She needs to be able to eat.
Even after antibiotics consider not feeding her. If the premise was that she is a euthanasia case i.e. has irreversible kidney damage then there is a good chance she could also have liver and intestinal damage ie. necrosis. I would think that a smart koi recovering from 'pre-euthanasia' will naturally decide when to start eating and only start by sucking easily digestible natural food that's developed on the tank walls (when the water is chemical free). Internal necrotic tissues will take several weeks to clear. All the best and great effort!
Last edited by KoiRun; 03-11-2020 at 01:23 AM.
Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin
KoiRun on YouTube, latest video:
https://youtu.be/72iiuRXY2Wk
thanks for the advice. her belly is still swollen this morning after the 4th shot last night. It was also the end of the three days of Oxo in the tank, so I did a massive water change as well. So the tank is relatively free of meds at this point.
To top it off - a heron found the pond. Good bye Karashi.
This hobby can test one's mettle.
- Jonathan
- aka "Berko"
So - today is the fifth and final shot.
I've been working with this fish so long I'm not 100% convinced I'm going to be able to interpret whether or not her conformation is "normal" .... she's gone through so many stages and shapes / sizes / colors.
Any suggestions on how to approach making a decision?
- Jonathan
- aka "Berko"
Nishikigoi21 posted this in another thread just recently. If I can bring your attention what I highlighted below. This maybe taken in another context here but there may be a scientific explanation to this and it is in the theory of autophagy. It is that is the when cells are starved genetic codes are expressed to create specific lysosomes. These lysosomes will scavenge it's own cellular parts that is not needed for survival and burn it for energy. In extreme starvation it would then look for protein in muscles but the hypothesis is that it will also look for cancer cells, necrotic cells, tumours etc. I least this is what I understand of it. Hope this helps.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autophagy
Here is a youtuber with a koi named Daisy. Daisy was at the point of dropsy. After several chemical treatments she was able to obtain antibiotic. After several weeks into all her treatments and finally with antibiotics she looked all well and eating. This is very surprising as it is very rare from what I heard that dropsy can be cured. Then a few weeks later the dropsy reoccured. That was when a vet agreed it's time to euthanize her. Learning from this, if I would successfully treated a koi with internal bacterial infection/dropsy, I would not feed her for several months.
Its an interesting saga of Daisy (interesting to me anyways). Here are a links to some of his videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxHOAzCE3Nc&t=252s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhAglFkd5ws&t=15s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CtK7lPQJFY
Last edited by KoiRun; 03-13-2020 at 11:15 AM.
Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin
KoiRun on YouTube, latest video:
https://youtu.be/72iiuRXY2Wk
Fasting during the coolest months seems prudent with healthy koi. They are fed robustly pre winter fasting. I always had good luck with it.
I've long been an advocate for the four season belief but extrapolating that it resolves tumors and heals organs that were likely compromised by severe parasitic and/or bacterial damage to me is a stretch. This koi will be heading into the warmest months facing months of fasting. I hope it works but it really is a different situation entirely from what is done with regularity in Japan.
Berko, you can give it a try. You don't have a lot to lose but I'm dubious that fasting will actually be the thing that heals this koi should she make it. Your care has been exceptional and you've given her every chance.
I haven't fed the koi in nearly two weeks. There is no redness / purpleness appearing on her underside. She is still swollen, and I think now that it's been more than a week since the fifth shot of baytril, her eyes are starting to bulge a bit more.
The vet is suggesting to try a different anti-biotic ... here is how she looks
Last edited by berkokid; 03-22-2020 at 06:08 PM.
- Jonathan
- aka "Berko"
That could be what is needed. In cases where we used baytril and it did not work, we would shift to amikacin and often got good results. Amikacin is looked down on by some since it sometimes hammers the kidneys, but if the fish is not going to make it without, does it matter if the treatment kills the fish.
Zone 7 A/B
Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
Richard
That’s exactly what my vet said. She’s not psyched about Amakin because there’s clearly kidney distress at this point given the swelling.
BTW: Just to ask the question, is there any chance she’s egg bound?
- Jonathan
- aka "Berko"
We are rapidly approaching breeding season. Here, I expected breeding to occur with the full moon of May or June, though it occurred as early as April and as late as July. So she may be nearing spawning, but I can't tell because of the history.
Zone 7 A/B
Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
Richard
I am shockingly happy to report that the fish healed up! I decided to try Nuflor ... and went with the proper injectable dose. I also moved the fish to a 300g QT as opposed to my 150g. The 300g is outside. She responded to the Nuflor similarly to the Baytril in that the swelling disappeared relatively rapidly. Once 80% of the swelling was gone, I fed her frozen peas for about a week, then moved to regular koi food. She began to eat and unlike the previous attempts, she did not swell back up and develop a bacterial infection again within a week or so of eating. So, after three weeks of stability, she's in the big pond. I will continue to monitor her super closely and we will see how she does over the spring ... but perhaps we saved this one.
- Jonathan
- aka "Berko"
Awesome!