• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
    Results 1 to 20 of 41

    Thread: Help! Why are my Koi dying?

    1. #1
      hoveringuy is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2017
      Location
      Seattle
      Posts
      13

      Help! Why are my Koi dying?

      I have a 1000gal pond in Seattle that's constructed of block, 4' deep. It has a birdman S&G filter, and a waterwall for aeration.

      The Koi are 2 years old and have never had an issue, particularly over the cold winter we had last year.

      So, we had a cold snap here 1 1/2 weeks ago that lowered my water temp down to 40-42. They (8 7-10" fish) hovered near the bottom as usual.

      Fast forward a week, we've had a change in weather with a quick warm-up to 50 and LOTS of rain. A few Koi found their way into my skimmer...

      Ph 7.0, Kh 20, Ammonia maybe .1ppm with a liquid vial test. water temp now 48.

      I added baking soda over a few days to raise Ph to 7.5, partial water changes for 30% total with de-chlorinator.

      I've had 3 more go and 1 more is in serious distress.

      My guess would have been ammonia build-up from sleepy bio bugs, but it's not testing that way.

      Any input on what else to check? How do I check for a bacterial issue?

    2. #2
      ademink's Avatar
      ademink is offline Supporting Member ~ Koi Health Care Committee Member
      is Still loving Red Label!
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2005
      Location
      Indianapolis, IN
      Posts
      3,192
      My guess is that you have had a pH crash. You definitely need to use an ammonia binder ASAP if you are raising raising your KH (which will raise and stabilize your pH...which you definitely need to continue doing). Ammonia is more toxic at higher pH levels. Make sure you have aggressive aeration by using an air pump w/ stone....set it on something so it's about halfway up in the pond.

      If it was a pH crash, all you can do is ensure that you continue to slowly raise the KH to stabilize your pH, keep the ammonia bound and wait and see if they recover. Keep your water parameters pristine.

      Please note that you will likely get a false positive at around .25 with your API drip kit when using an ammonia blocker. I recommend getting a seachem ammonia alert disk to show you if your harmful ammonia is bound. You can get it on Amazon or sometimes in local fish stores if they are decent.

      ***You will need to dose for the FULL volume of the pond every 48 hrs**** until your ammonia settles down.
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member



    3. #3
      ademink's Avatar
      ademink is offline Supporting Member ~ Koi Health Care Committee Member
      is Still loving Red Label!
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2005
      Location
      Indianapolis, IN
      Posts
      3,192
      One more thought...what is your nitrite (not niTRATE) reading right now?
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member



    4. #4
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Southeast Virginia
      Posts
      2,841
      Did you make a water change? Even though you had lots of rain, there is lots of stuff in the rain especially lately. Ash from fires, volcanos, industries, car exhaust, etc. Hard to say from where the rain originated.

      For me your recent temperatures would have been perfect for a water change since my well water is aprox 53 degrees.

      I try to make water changes during the winter on warm days.
      Nancy



    5. #5
      icu2's Avatar
      icu2 is offline Administrator ~ WWKC Treasurer
      is usually here but if not I'm
      probably off flying
       
      Feeling:
      Piratey
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2007
      Location
      Poulsbo, WA
      Posts
      29,575
      One thing to be aware of in western Washington the weather normally comes from the Pacific Ocean, so it's
      much less acidic than the eastern part of the U.S. We've had a lot of rain and snow melt lately but my pH has
      changed very little... but obviously many things can effect pH.

      Can you provide pictures of the pond? I'd second the need to bind any ammonia showing up on tests if raising
      the KH and thus pH. Any chance of something getting in the pond from snow melting?
      --Steve


      “First in excellence
      frist in pride"
      --Weeds

    6. #6
      graybird's Avatar
      graybird is offline Supporting Member ~ Koi Health Care Committee Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2008
      Location
      San Rafael, CA
      Posts
      1,757
      Did your expired koi show any symptoms like sloughing slime coat or irritation/flashing? And was your KH test 20 drops or did you convert by multiplying the number of drops by 17.9 per the instructions? My suspicion is also a pH crash and you've gotten great advice thus far.

      Seachem also makes an ammonia test that reads only the "bad" ammonia; check Amazon.
      Mary

    7. #7
      hoveringuy is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2017
      Location
      Seattle
      Posts
      13
      Name:  IMG_20200124_165655.jpg
Views: 221
Size:  216.6 KBName:  IMG_20200124_170849.jpg
Views: 223
Size:  124.2 KB

      I don't have leaves or muck, only a slime coat of algae. The hardness came from a disc water analyzer, although I also have a Hach test kit that I didn't use.

      Nitrites are showing -0-.

      What was the chemistry behind the pH crash? My to-do includes adding 10lbs of oyster shell to the top of my SG filter this weekend.
      Last edited by hoveringuy; 01-24-2020 at 08:18 PM.

    8. #8
      ademink's Avatar
      ademink is offline Supporting Member ~ Koi Health Care Committee Member
      is Still loving Red Label!
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2005
      Location
      Indianapolis, IN
      Posts
      3,192
      KH appears to be 180 from what I see on the strips above. Did it raise drastically from 20?
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member



    9. #9
      ademink's Avatar
      ademink is offline Supporting Member ~ Koi Health Care Committee Member
      is Still loving Red Label!
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2005
      Location
      Indianapolis, IN
      Posts
      3,192
      Steve, thanks for the western acid rain education!
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member



    10. #10
      hoveringuy is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2017
      Location
      Seattle
      Posts
      13
      The baking soda also raises the Kh, right? My 20 reading came from a disc test, not the strip.

      Also, the Koi looked picture-perfect when they expired (except that they were dead). Slimy, no flashing. Just incredibly listless.

    11. #11
      icu2's Avatar
      icu2 is offline Administrator ~ WWKC Treasurer
      is usually here but if not I'm
      probably off flying
       
      Feeling:
      Piratey
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2007
      Location
      Poulsbo, WA
      Posts
      29,575
      Drip tests are a lot more accurate:

      http://www.cascade-pond-supply.com/T...ng-sc-443.html

      The nitrate test seems odd...
      Any fish added lately? Anything you can think of that changed? When was the last time the s/g filter
      was flushed?
      --Steve


      “First in excellence
      frist in pride"
      --Weeds

    12. #12
      hoveringuy is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2017
      Location
      Seattle
      Posts
      13
      I try to use drip tests and I have one for Nitrate, which shows nothing...

      In the summer I'll blow the filter and drain 10% every 5-7 days. In the winter I'll do it every 7-10 days. I've gone 2 weeks in the past but I've been good about it.

      I haven't added fish, and in fact I re-homed 3 in October because they had grown so much over the summer.

    13. #13
      kdh is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2011
      Location
      up north
      Posts
      7,861
      Quote Originally Posted by hoveringuy View Post
      The baking soda also raises the Kh, right? My 20 reading came from a disc test, not the strip.

      Also, the Koi looked picture-perfect when they expired (except that they were dead). Slimy, no flashing. Just incredibly listless.
      this can be an indication of ammonia poisoning. Is 7.0ph your normal number? Take a ph reading early morning and early evening to see if there is a swing in the ph.Catch the one koi that is seriously ill and look at the gills. I agree with the others. Could have been a ph crash.

    14. #14
      hoveringuy is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2017
      Location
      Seattle
      Posts
      13
      The gills are a deep red throughout.

      What would have caused the pH crash? Does a pH crash precipitate an increase in ammonia, or did that happen because of a bio shutdown due to cold followed by warm?

    15. #15
      No Buddy is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2018
      Location
      planet earth (mostly)
      Posts
      177
      My guess is a pH crash from everything i have seen so far. Get yourself some better test kits for sure. Also you should probably read thru this thread as this is a prime example of what was discussed there...don't let the title of the thread fool you tho as it went into much detail about pH and kH.;
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...d-Bead-Filters

    16. #16
      icu2's Avatar
      icu2 is offline Administrator ~ WWKC Treasurer
      is usually here but if not I'm
      probably off flying
       
      Feeling:
      Piratey
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2007
      Location
      Poulsbo, WA
      Posts
      29,575
      Quote Originally Posted by hoveringuy View Post
      The gills are a deep red throughout.

      What would have caused the pH crash? Does a pH crash precipitate an increase in ammonia, or did that happen because of a bio shutdown due to cold followed by warm?
      Some more reading:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...ns-and-Newbies

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...ns-And-Newbies

      A pH crash sometimes happens when the KH (which stabilizes pH near 8.2) gets low and the pH
      starts to drop below 7.0. Bio-conversion uses and needs KH to happen, so I'd suspect the low KH
      caused the rise in ammonia as the filter started to be unable to convert ammonia to nitrite, and
      the pH which was already low, continued to drop as the filter tried to work.
      --Steve


      “First in excellence
      frist in pride"
      --Weeds

    17. #17
      hoveringuy is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2017
      Location
      Seattle
      Posts
      13
      Thanks to all. I have 2 left that are perky and seem happy. I have one that's on life support.

      What I've read is that the key to pH stability is buffering through carbonates. I will need to find a good water chemistry book for my next trip to India when I'm awake at 12pm and have nothing else to do all night...

      My immediate get-well plan is to replace my testing strips with liquid titration testing and focus more on KH, which I haven't paid much attention to until now. I can raise KH with sodium carbonate (baking soda) and also with calcium carbonate (oyster shells in my filter). I'll continue to change water.

      I also think that as my pond is aging it's leaching less lime which may have been the invisible hand that's helped me until now.

    18. #18
      icu2's Avatar
      icu2 is offline Administrator ~ WWKC Treasurer
      is usually here but if not I'm
      probably off flying
       
      Feeling:
      Piratey
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2007
      Location
      Poulsbo, WA
      Posts
      29,575
      A suggestion... test your source water to know what you're putting in the pond during water changes.
      It's sometimes assumed that it's all "zeros", but often times it is not.
      Oyster shells will increase KH but it takes a LONG time. It's a very slow release... baking soda is a much
      more effective method. Check this link for help in knowing how much to add for the desired change:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/koicalcs.php?do=calckh
      --Steve


      “First in excellence
      frist in pride"
      --Weeds

    19. #19
      Marilyn's Avatar
      Marilyn is offline Supporting Member ~ Koi Health Care Committee Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2008
      Location
      happy in the Heartland! 46071
      Posts
      17,170
      Quote Originally Posted by hoveringuy View Post
      The gills are a deep red throughout.

      What would have caused the pH crash? Does a pH crash precipitate an increase in ammonia, or did that happen because of a bio shutdown due to cold followed by warm?
      .
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    20. #20
      kdh is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2011
      Location
      up north
      Posts
      7,861
      Here are two good sights to bookmark and learn about koi health and other good stuff.
      https://hanoverkoifarms.com/the-science-of-water/
      http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/

      This is from hanover.


      Think of it like this: Pretend the kH level of your pond is a "Tums" antacid sitting there. When acids are excreted (by whatever) into the sytem, the "Tums"/kH instantly neutralize them. Over time, the kH can get used up each time it does this, just as a "Tums" might. If you eat something spicy, and it gives you indigestion, you might take an antacid to get rid of the excess acid in your stomach. If you eat something else spicy after that you will may likely have to take more antacid because the first dose of antacid got used in absorbing the initial acid content up. This is exactly how the kH buffers your water, and you have to understand that there is a minimum level needed to accomplish this. Too small or not enough “Tums” and you will still have indigestion. As stated, the kH will get used up over time and need to be replenished. Therefore, the kH has to be monitored on a regular basis, and you will have to most likely replenish it at various times throughout the year.

    Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •