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  • Results 1 to 14 of 14

    Thread: Rebuild from Pond to Cascading Falls

    1. #1
      Flanders's Avatar
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      Rebuild from Pond to Cascading Falls

      My pond is 9 years old and it's been a delight to have in our small twin home yard.

      It's about 16ft. by 7ft oval shaped with about 800 gal. water. A Pondbuilder mnfg. 22" spillwyt waterfall and an 8" Weir opening skimmer. The pump is a Pondmaster(Danner) Hi-Drive 4000 pump. The lift of the falls is 2 to 3 ft.

      Here's our delema. I am considering changing the pond over to a cascading falls. There's a lot of issue why but I won't get into them. One thing is clear we don't want to lose the waterfall beauty and sound. I figured after (breaking our hearts) and getting rid of the fish, about 12, I'd drain then back-fill the pond area to a design of a brook about 2ft to 3ft wide maintaining the same length. Put some curve to it. I'll reuse all my Pennsylvania blue flat rock and river rock. The waterfall and skimmer will remain where they are.

      The pump we have gives us a nice waterfall feature but my main concern is, will it be pushing to much water too fast. The pump is rated 4000GPH. My thought is whether it's 800 Gal. or 100Gal. of water, the action and flow of water will be the same do to the distance it pushing the water and the lift. I'd hate to buy a new pump.

      What say you my friends?

      Thanks, Stephen in Phila., PA
      Stephen

      "and this too shall pass"


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    2. #2
      trapper is offline Senior Member
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      I agree with your line of thought.

    3. #3
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      Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
      My pond is 9 years old and it's been a delight to have in our small twin home yard.

      It's about 16ft. by 7ft oval shaped with about 800 gal. water. A Pondbuilder mnfg. 22" spillwyt waterfall and an 8" Weir opening skimmer. The pump is a Pondmaster(Danner) Hi-Drive 4000 pump. The lift of the falls is 2 to 3 ft.

      Here's our delema. I am considering changing the pond over to a cascading falls. There's a lot of issue why but I won't get into them. One thing is clear we don't want to lose the waterfall beauty and sound. I figured after (breaking our hearts) and getting rid of the fish, about 12, I'd drain then back-fill the pond area to a design of a brook about 2ft to 3ft wide maintaining the same length. Put some curve to it. I'll reuse all my Pennsylvania blue flat rock and river rock. The waterfall and skimmer will remain where they are.

      The pump we have gives us a nice waterfall feature but my main concern is, will it be pushing to much water too fast. The pump is rated 4000GPH. My thought is whether it's 800 Gal. or 100Gal. of water, the action and flow of water will be the same do to the distance it pushing the water and the lift. I'd hate to buy a new pump.

      What say you my friends?

      Thanks, Stephen in Phila., PA
      I'm kind of confused... if you're back filling the pond, what will the skimmers function be?
      I'm not sure what you envision when you say "brook", but if you want keep the waterfall
      I wonder if you couldn't do something like a pondless or disappearing waterfall with just a
      basin at the waterfall base?
      --Steve



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    4. #4
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      Thanks Trapper & ICU2,
      First let me confess to being one stupid dude. I bought this Pondmaster HY-Drive 400GPH pump made by Danner 9 years ago. It has run 24/7 for that long. I've bragged to friends that that baby is one heck of of pump but the owner sure was dumb. With the waterfall I never had to worry about freeze over and bad gases not escaping and getting plenty of oxygen in the water if I did get a freeze over. I live in Phila. and it's a Zone 7 for cold. Occasional freezing. About two weeks ago I shut the pump off for a minute and it would not start up again. That day, of course the pond had 1 1/2" thick ice. Long story short I called Danner and from a very smart lady learned it is recommended to remove pump for the winter and use a de-icer AND do a yearly maintenance on it. DUH. You mean pull out the impeller and clean it. Why would I do that/ That's the smart thing to do. Well. the pump is shot. Now I have a de-icer.
      So getting back to my original idea, I learned from my son who builds pools in AZ, if I back-fill the pond and just have a cascading waterfall, flowing like a stream to the skimmer my 4000GPM pump would cavitate. Danner agrees with him. My 4000GPH pump would be pushing the water to the falls faster than it could return to the pump, thus burning out the pump. The same pump I ruined.
      Well I'd need a smaller one anyway.
      Now my thoughts are, I can keep the Waterfall unit where it is but have to rethink the skimmer box. I thought I could reuse it as the pump holder and water collector. But, after watching some YouTubes of building Pondless waterfalls I may have to invest in some new pieces of equipment like a "matrix box, Pump housing and much smaller pump.
      That's not even including finding the soil for the back-fill and someone to wheelbarrow it into my yard.
      This 75 year old retired Firefighter just don't have that kind of energy these days.
      Steve
      Last edited by Flanders; 01-06-2020 at 02:29 PM.
      Stephen

      "and this too shall pass"


    5. #5
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      Filling in a pond to a pondless with waterfall

      Following for a later date.

      proudly Canadian

    6. #6
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      This is what I hate to lose:
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      Stephen

      "and this too shall pass"


    7. #7
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      This also:Name:  IMG_0715.jpg
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      Stephen

      "and this too shall pass"


    8. #8
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      Beautiful pond and setting and I can imagine the feelings of missing it all... we all sure
      aren't getting any younger! If you're not expanding the waterfall to be much larger it looks
      like you might be able to get by with maybe a 55 gallon barrel dug flush into the ground to
      hold the pump and water flowing from the stream when losing power.

      I had the same issue when I connected my two ponds together and figuring out how much
      excess water I'd end up with in the lower pond when losing power. My lower pond actually
      overflows by a couple hundred gallons but I have two pretty long streams and deal with it
      with an auto-fill that refills the water loss when the power comes back on:

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      It's pretty hard to estimate how large a container it would take (or at least it is for me),
      but if you can just get a container in place at the bottom and you could just use a hose to fill
      and start the waterfall flowing and the turn it off and see how much you end up with in the
      container at the bottom when the water flow is turned off. You only really need a container
      that will hold as much extra water to keep the pump primed with water while running and hold
      the water that is flowing in the waterfall stream when shut off.
      --Steve



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    9. #9
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      Steve,
      If I didn't know you were a homeowner I would think I was looking at a resort site. That's a beautiful setting. Our yard is only 20 wide by 50 deep and the pond is about 7 by 16 but there is pleasure in all sizes. (That's what she said)
      That big yellow Koi, Sunny, was about 4' when I bought him and about 14" when he died (?) and my wife and I sat at the water and cried. Buried him under a rock with a big sun painted on it. Never thought you could feel that way about a fish, huh? I'm torn about letting the others go when I have too.
      Anyway back to the project. I follow you except for your reference to power. Is your water from a natural stream. If I have a small stream of water with no fish I don't care when and if I lose power for my pump.
      Here are two pics. The first is the dig with waterfall and skimmer set in place. the second is water filled with a very rough layout to give you an idea of what I want to do. Interestingly Sunny was first in there but I got a case of green water that freaked me out but I learned.
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      Stephen

      "and this too shall pass"


    10. #10
      cottagefog is online now Senior Member
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      Stephen
      i know you didnt go into detail about why you are getting rid of the pond, but i wonder if the reason that it is too time and energy consuming to keep the pond maintained to support the health and well being of your koi?

      If that is the case, why not get rid of the koi and keep the pond running for the look and sound you want to keep and enjoy. Add enough chlorine (or any other chemical) that would keep your pond clear, and still friendly for you plants and animals/birds for an occasional drink?

      No more worrying about feeding, water health, cleaning filters but you keep the sight and sounds of you pond.

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    11. #11
      icu2's Avatar
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      Aww, thank you!

      Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
      (That's what she said)


      Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
      That big yellow Koi, Sunny, was about 4' when I bought him and about 14" when he died (?) and my wife and I sat at the water and cried. Buried him under a rock with a big sun painted on it. Never thought you could feel that way about a fish, huh?
      I totally understand the feelings... the big chagoi in the picture of the lower pond was from Birdman's pond
      named Miss Piggy, who was a beloved pet by everyone who visited my ponds as well as Steve's pond... but later was
      electrocuted from a defective well pump. She's buried on the hill above the ponds with a maple tree beside her
      along with my kitty who passed away a year later but both were intrigued by each other.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Flanders View Post
      Anyway back to the project. I follow you except for your reference to power. Is your water from a natural stream.
      No, not a natural stream... it's all from pumps pulling water from the ponds.
      The reason to be aware of the loss of power is the volume of water in motion.
      Think about the volume of water flowing in the stream when in operation and
      what would happen if you suddenly lost commercial power. All the water in the
      stream would continue to flow to the bottom of the stream until empty, i.e., into
      the container at the end with the pump. The small basins in the stream will still hold
      the water but the rest will empty into the bottom container. There needs to be enough
      room in the container at the bottom to hold that volume of water. It sometimes can be
      surprising how much volume that is... that's why I say the best thing is to fill it
      and try. Before I said fill it with a hose, but in hindsight you really should do it
      with the pump you're going to use... that way you have the whole volume of water
      that's going to be flowing over the stream/waterfall and what will end up being
      in the container if/when there's a loss of power.
      --Steve



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    12. #12
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      You said your pump died.

      Have you ever replaced the impeller?

      I have had a couple of Pondmaster pumps that stuck when they got old. I could bump it on the ground a couple of times to start it and then place it back in the pond.
      Nancy



    13. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by cottagefog View Post
      Stephen
      i know you didnt go into detail about why you are getting rid of the pond, but i wonder if the reason that it is too time and energy consuming to keep the pond maintained to support the health and well being of your koi?

      If that is the case, why not get rid of the koi and keep the pond running for the look and sound you want to keep and enjoy. Add enough chlorine (or any other chemical) that would keep your pond clear, and still friendly for you plants and animals/birds for an occasional drink?

      No more worrying about feeding, water health, cleaning filters but you keep the sight and sounds of you pond.
      Thanks for your interest Cottagefog. Well it's that old story of age & mortality. I'm 75, my wife and I are 11 yrs. apart. We talk a lot about making life simpler; not buying more stuff, getting rid of unneeded STUFF and so on and so on. If she is left alone that's another job for a single woman her age (unless there is someone in the wings I don't know about). Our house size in this neighborhood is mostly bought as a starter for young families and I feel it would not sell well with a 3' deep body of water, without a fence. Although our property is fenced. My way of thinking is whats the point of 700-800 gal of water sitting there without fish when I can have the pleasure of watersound, plants and water for the birds with less. A 12ft by 2.5ft by 2" deep stream is much more manageable and safe. I do respect your opinion though.
      Speaking with a tech at Pondbuilder.com today he tells me he's been talking to a lot of people going this route.
      Stephen

      "and this too shall pass"


    14. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by koi4u2c View Post
      You said your pump died.

      Have you ever replaced the impeller?

      I have had a couple of Pondmaster pumps that stuck when they got old. I could bump it on the ground a couple of times to start it and then place it back in the pond.
      Hello Koi4u2c, If you read my #4 post I admitted how stupid I was not educating myself in pump maintenance. Danner Manufacturing told me with proper care people have gotten 30 years out of a pump.
      Anyway, when I tried every safe method to remove the impeller, even your way, I finally took a flat screwdriver and thought I could break the hold on it. Well, I broke the impeller fins off thereby forcing me to buy a new impeller.
      That really not a bad thing though. If you've kept up with my intended plans I could not even use a 4000GPH pump. I will be going from 17ft long pond/30" deep to a 12ft 2" stream so a smaller pump is need and much cheaper. That 4000GPH would cavitate in minutes.
      Stephen

      "and this too shall pass"


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