• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
    Results 1 to 20 of 75

    Thread: How much ammonia do fish produce without food?

    1. #1
      SimonW is online now Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2018
      Location
      Sweden
      Posts
      212

      How much ammonia do fish produce without food?

      Hello friends:

      I know that fish can live without food for very long time, which I guess means that their metabolism is very low, which in turn menas that very little waste is produced, including ammonia. Therefore the main ammonia production we normally have in our ponds comes from fish poop and uneaten food, right?

      So theoretically I can put a lot of fish in a limited volume as long as I keep the feeding low, right? That explains the massive amount of fish that are kept in small tanks in Chinese fish stores, as they don“t get any food when they are there for sale.

      Thanks for your thoughts!

    2. #2
      kdh is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2011
      Location
      up north
      Posts
      7,855

    3. #3
      mplskoi is offline Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2013
      Location
      Minneapolis
      Posts
      1,377
      I will be curious to hear the experts chime in on this. I recall reading at this site several years ago that fish will produce 2/3rds the ammonia that they usually do even if they are fasting. Not sure how they came to that number, and I expect that it would really depend on how "clean" the water is otherwise. An indoor tank with no leaves or debris falling in would be pretty different than an outdoor pond that has a layer of sludge decomposing on the bottom.

    4. #4
      Marilyn's Avatar
      Marilyn is offline Supporting Member ~ Koi Health Care Committee Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2008
      Location
      happy in the Heartland! 46071
      Posts
      17,161
      I have always heard that the majority of the ammonia produced is done by the koi breathing and processing the oxygen via their gills. Cutting back on feeding can help as they do produce some ammonia from their vents.
      I don't know how accurate this table is but it gives you an idea of the concerns about much ammonia is produced by various sizes of koi:

      https://russellwatergardens.com/page...d-weight#chart
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    5. #5
      kdh is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2011
      Location
      up north
      Posts
      7,855

    6. #6
      ricshaw is offline Supporting Member
      is who misses his Koi.
       
      Feeling:
      Bemused
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2016
      Location
      Southern California
      Posts
      2,121
      How much ammonia do fish produce without food?
      It depends on pond water temperature.
      Last edited by ricshaw; 01-02-2020 at 11:44 AM.

    7. #7
      kdh is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2011
      Location
      up north
      Posts
      7,855
      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      I have always heard that the majority of the ammonia produced is done by the koi breathing and processing the oxygen via their gills. Cutting back on feeding can help as they do produce some ammonia from their vents.
      I don't know how accurate this table is but it gives you an idea of the concerns about much ammonia is produced by various sizes of koi:

      https://russellwatergardens.com/page...d-weight#chart
      The table is accurate.
      I have read that ammonia created by respiration through the gills can be from 60% to 70%+. Depends on the article read.

      Lets not forget. Ammonia created by koi is several times stronger than store bought ammonia.

    8. #8
      batman's Avatar
      batman is online now Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2013
      Location
      Gotham
      Posts
      551
      This article references a study on Atlantic fish. From 50 to 68F (10 to 20C) metabolism doubled. Many koi ponds in cold climate get close to 40F.

      https://fishbio.com/field-notes/the-...ish-metabolism

      Overfeeding would definitely change the ratios of the ammonia source at any temperature.
      The real Batman wears polyester! Don't be fooled by the plastic imposter.

    9. #9
      Marilyn's Avatar
      Marilyn is offline Supporting Member ~ Koi Health Care Committee Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2008
      Location
      happy in the Heartland! 46071
      Posts
      17,161
      It's an excellent point about metabolism and oxygen in varying temps.

      Simon, you're dealing with with some issues here that are challenging because of your fish load and volume of water.
      The warmer the water, which will facilitate cycling the tank to process the nitrite readings, the higher their metabolisms and lower the amount of DO in the water.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    10. #10
      audioenvy is offline Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2016
      Location
      North Carolina
      Posts
      775
      I believe the notion that fish not eating anything still produce 70% of the ammonia they would produce if eating a "full menu" is ridiculous and does not in any way reflect what I've seen using ongoing live monitoring of ammonia.

      I don't dispute the chart that was posted--but nowhere does it say how much food is being consumed by the fish, the protein content of the food, and the temperature of the water. All of these would affect any chart that is produced.

    11. #11
      audioenvy is offline Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2016
      Location
      North Carolina
      Posts
      775
      This is also another great opportunity to post this very helpful chart to remind everyone of the impact of temperature and pH on the harmfulness of total ammonia (TAN) as tested using the API kit drops.

      Name:  a_Ammonia_chart__pond_02.jpg
Views: 228
Size:  189.3 KB

      Cliff notes: ammonia is much less harmful in cold water and lower pH.

    12. #12
      Marilyn's Avatar
      Marilyn is offline Supporting Member ~ Koi Health Care Committee Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2008
      Location
      happy in the Heartland! 46071
      Posts
      17,161
      When I first got into the hobby, I recall hearing that around 70% of the ammonia produced by koi is done during respiration. I don't dispute that lowering the food intake will ameliorate the situation but fish will breath whether they are being fed lightly or heavily. They will urinate/defecate even when feedings cease.

      This thread ties in with the other ER thread by the OP about a water quality issue. This thread needs to be seen with that in mind.
      When a tank is very heavily stocked, lowering feedings will be a bandaid to an overall issue if the system is not maintaining good water quality.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    13. #13
      audioenvy is offline Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2016
      Location
      North Carolina
      Posts
      775
      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      When I first got into the hobby, I recall hearing that around 70% of the ammonia produced by koi is done during respiration.
      I don't dispute that but I think it's misinterpreted. Saying that 70% of the ammonia produced is through the gills is NOT the same as saying that even without feeding the fish will still produce 70% as much ammonia as when fasting. IMO they produce much more ammonia when eating--but it's still released largely through the gills.

      Given that this is an ER thread I'll leave it there. I agree that not feeding is only a band-aid.

    14. #14
      batman's Avatar
      batman is online now Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2013
      Location
      Gotham
      Posts
      551
      Quote Originally Posted by SimonW View Post
      Hello friends:

      I know that fish can live without food for very long time, which I guess means that their metabolism is very low, which in turn menas that very little waste is produced, including ammonia. Therefore the main ammonia production we normally have in our ponds comes from fish poop and uneaten food, right?

      So theoretically I can put a lot of fish in a limited volume as long as I keep the feeding low, right? That explains the massive amount of fish that are kept in small tanks in Chinese fish stores, as they don“t get any food when they are there for sale.

      Thanks for your thoughts!
      Do these markets use chillers on the heavy stocked tanks?
      The real Batman wears polyester! Don't be fooled by the plastic imposter.

    15. #15
      SimonW is online now Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2018
      Location
      Sweden
      Posts
      212
      Thank you all for your helpful inputs. They have definitively increased my knowledge on fish-keeping!

      Regarding variation of ammonia production I think that audioenvy“s thought is reasonable. As fish can go for very long time (up to months) without food even in normal temperature (in winter it has been proven by myself that koi can definitively be without food for at least 7 months, October till May next year, without being visibly thinner) they must somehow be able to adjust their metabolism depending on availability of food, thereby also production of ammonia. Otherwise how can they survive starvation so well.

    16. #16
      SimonW is online now Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2018
      Location
      Sweden
      Posts
      212
      Quote Originally Posted by batman View Post
      Do these markets use chillers on the heavy stocked tanks?
      No chillers.

      But I have overlooked two things: 1) They are heavily aerated, 2) the pH in the water can be quite low. As the table audioenvy uploaded shows: lower pH much higher total ammonia toleration.

    17. #17
      htgoldfish is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Nov 2018
      Location
      Minnesota
      Posts
      25
      They may just add some ammonia binders.

    18. #18
      kdh is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2011
      Location
      up north
      Posts
      7,855
      Quote Originally Posted by SimonW View Post
      No chillers.

      But I have overlooked two things: 1) They are heavily aerated, 2) the pH in the water can be quite low. As the table audioenvy uploaded shows: lower pH much higher total ammonia toleration.
      frequent and large water changes.

    19. #19
      Nguyen365's Avatar
      Nguyen365 is online now Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2018
      Location
      Bakersfield ca
      Posts
      2,519
      I still have my flow through still running even though I'm only feeding 1x a day at 50 degrees temp. Great info

    20. #20
      SimonW is online now Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2018
      Location
      Sweden
      Posts
      212
      I have just read somewhere here that there is a kind of bacteria that make nitrite and ammonia react with one another, and the products are nitrogen gas and water. But I just cannot find it again. Could some knowledgeable give me a link here?

      When I calculated the amount of food I give to my koi and the amount of nitrate in the water I found that some 40% of the total ammonia-nitrite-nitrate nitrogen is missing. With other words there is 40% less nitrate in the water than I have calculated to.

      Since I constantly have nitrite present in the water (0.2 - 0.8 ppm) I wonder if such reaction has been going on here. If it is true then I may just let nitrite be while protecting the fish with table salt. Table salt has worked well during the last 1.5-2 months and the fish are happy and healthy, and I feel confident when Richard thinks that my fish are safe.

      What do you think?

    Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •