How much ammonia do fish produce without food?

[Russell Peters]

[/COLOR]

North Pole?

Japan, in their greenhouses, and they do this because the Koi grow better when this is done

[kdh]

Japan, in their greenhouses, and they do this because the Koi grow better when this is done

Well I'll be darned. Learn something every day.

[kdh]

Fascinating read with 98 pages.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3059970/

[kdh]

Fascinating read with 98 pages.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3059970/

[Russell Peters]

Fascinating read with 98 pages.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3059970/

There you go, it says the gills are the primary site of ammonia excretion

[audioenvy]

There you go, it says the gills are the primary site of ammonia excretion

I don't believe anyone was questioning that. I think some people have taken this to mean that ammonia production is tied to respiration and all living koi have respiration so therefore 60-70 percent of ammonia production is static and occurs regardless of feeding and temperature.

[Russell Peters]

I don't believe anyone was questioning that. I think some people have taken this to mean that ammonia production is tied to respiration and all living koi have respiration so therefore 60-70 percent of ammonia production is static and occurs regardless of feeding and temperature.

I never got that anyone implied by saying that the ammonia produced through respiration meant that the gills produce it. I say this because the first one to post this was M and she knows this. I think the word produced was meant to imply the release of ammonia into the water as she also said it was processed (released) through the gills. I think it is a misunderstanding and we are probably all on the same page.

[Marilyn]

This is what I meant:



No doubt, the more you feed, the more ammonia will be in the water.

[Russell Peters]

I know someone that put a single Koi in a QT system with aeration, no filtration, and was not feeding anything. Within days the Koi looked terrible, as if the scales were bleeding, and, when the ammonia was checked, it was high. Once that was taken care of the Koi recovered fully. So, here is a situation where a Koi could have died from ammonia even though it wasn’t being fed. It was a single 8” Koi. Somehow it was still producing ammonia without eating.

It was just pointed out to me that we are actually off course from what the OP is asking. He is asking how much ammonia is produced when Koi are not fed. I am bumping up this response I had earlier as I think it sums it up. Even if you don’t feed your Koi they can still produce enough ammonia to be dangerous, or deadly, to your Koi.

[KoiRun]

Hello friends:

I know that fish can live without food for very long time, which I guess means that their metabolism is very low, which in turn menas that very little waste is produced, including ammonia. Therefore the main ammonia production we normally have in our ponds comes from fish poop and uneaten food, right?

So theoretically I can put a lot of fish in a limited volume as long as I keep the feeding low, right? That explains the massive amount of fish that are kept in small tanks in Chinese fish stores, as they don´t get any food when they are there for sale.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Have you ever seen the turn over rates on these small tanks?
Some members here have fairly small ponds that are considered overstocked.

Turn over rates like over 4-10x

I imagine that in small tanks ammonia is managed mainly by a mixture of filter capacity, turn-over rates, temperature and feeding rate.

I know somebody that over-wintered 3 koi, 2 were jumbo (28 and 32"!) in a 150G stock tank in a un-heated garage. I believe he had a 2400g/hr submersible pump going through a laguna pressurized filter.

[KoiRun]

I am under the impression that 60-70% ammonia being released from the gills is what that percentage is for whether they are feeding or in torpor. That means the other 30-40% is released from the vent. Obviously, when Koi are eating, they are producing a larger volume of ammonia than when they are not eating. I do not find it hard to believe at all that, even if they are not eating, that 60-70% of the ammonia is still released through the gills, even though the total amount of ammonia is much less. 60-70% of almost nothing is still 60-70% isn’t it.

Thanks for the much needed insight and clarification.

[batman]

Ratios maybe true up to the point of being overfed. Then uneaten food converting in the pond system plus more food moving through the fish than its system can assimilate properly.

[kdh]

So does not ammonia get passed through the skin as well?

[SimonW]

Hello friends:

Thank you all for your inputs! But I am a little bit confused. Maybe I should put it in this way:

Please compare ammonia production in these 2 situations:

1) Koi are fed optimally (no uneaten food), I guess 1% av body weight per day when the water temperature is 72 F (optimal right? Mine is 65 F so a little bit less),

2) Koi are not fed for several weeks at the same temperature

Will koi in situation 2) still produce 60-70% av ammonia as they do in situation 1)?

I don´t mind how the ammonia is released into the water, though I know mostly through the gills. My intention is to know how much less nitrite/nitrate it will ultimately be produced if I feed them less or not at all.

[Marilyn]

To be frank, I haven't a clue. Your situation is quite unique, high fish load (by weight of total fish) to volume of water. I'm not even sure there is an absolute as each fish weighs something different and will be producing different amounts. A larger koi produces more per gram of weight than a smaller one. It's a bit like measuring earthquakes. A 22" koi is not like 11 2" koi. Little food, which food, if there is food are all factors.

Perhaps this article will be of assistance:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3059970/

Basically, if knowing this is critical for you and given the uniqueness of your situation, I would suggest you start journaling your testing, feeding and results. You have the tools to be answering this.

I suspect that stress may also increase ammonia production and overcrowding would be a stressor. Do I have proof, no, but it makes sense to me.
That is why measuring your individual situation instead of hypothesizing possibllities seems prudent.

[KoiRun]

In your opinion... not from experience.

lol

I am using 3 products very similar to feather rock which has similar micropores but I used them submerged. These are seachem matrix (debated as being pumice/feather rock vs synthetic), activated charcoal, and fluval biomax. These media has some of the highest surface-area-for-unit-volume.

Here's an electron micrograph of what their surfaces might look like:




IMO these are excellent media for removal of ammonia, nitrites, Nitrates as well as DOCs. I've never had nitrates greater than 20ppm (mostly 5ppm or less) in my pond. I also don't get any foaming problems. It has also been a few years since I cleaned my filters and they have never clogged.

Didn't you yourself say that you have tried several bio medias in DIY Shower filters and that Feather Rock is probably the best media for a Shower filter? Well it's a bog filter .

[icu2]

Didn't you yourself say that you have tried several bio medias in DIY Shower filters and that Feather Rock is probably the best media for a Shower filter? Well it's a bog filter .

I know this question wasn't directed to me but I'd only point out a couple of things....

Some info on activated charcoal:

What charcoal won't remove:

Ammonia
Nitrates
Nitrites
Fluoride
Sodium and most other cations
Significant amounts of heavy metals, iron, or copper
Significant amounts of hydrocarbons or petroleum distillates
Bacteria, protozoa, viruses, and other microorganisms

https://www.thoughtco.com/how-does-a...al-work-604294

I don't know anything about the other 2 medias you use.

My example of feather rock in a shower environment for over 5 years and never been cleaned or any
maintenance what so ever:



I'm at a loss as how you can compare feather rock to a bog filter in any type of similar situation.

[KoiRun]

I know this question wasn't directed to me but I'd only point out a couple of things....

Some info on activated charcoal:

What charcoal won't remove:


https://www.thoughtco.com/how-does-a...al-work-604294

I don't know anything about the other 2 medias you use.

My example of feather rock in a shower environment for over 5 years and never been cleaned or any
maintenance what so ever:



I'm at a loss as how you can compare feather rock to a bog filter in any type of similar situation.

'Bog filter' only because it is never cleaned and because within its deeper passages or pores lies anaerobic or microaerophilic conditions where denitrification can take place. I've always wondered why many think showers are so great (I've never had one) now I think I know why.
Activated charcoal's adsorptive capacity lasts only a few months. All along charcoal also functions as any other type media that bacteria can attach to, but different in that it has an incredible amount of surface area.


This video explains how activated charcoal is used to denitrify..

[batman]

Great photo Steve. Definitely shows all the pores are clogged and helps support the denitrification theory many have of feather rock. As for the media clogging between pieces absolutely not.

Looks lika a good choice on size. How big are the chunks?

[icu2]

No actual measurements but I'm estimating at 3" - 4" in width of each piece on average.