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  • Results 1 to 15 of 15

    Thread: Koi dying for no obvious reasons

    1. #1
      Zaman is offline Junior Member
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      Koi dying for no obvious reasons

      Over 2 weeks all our 20 yo stock dying one or two each day. All show signs of suffocation, nothing else. We have a well established 7cu m pond with many streams, waterfalls and plants.
      we live in a remote region in Egypt, with no vet facilities nor services. We have our own test kit to check water. Recently we introduced few “fan tail” koi to the stock, (they were quarantined for almost a year in another pond). Some say they stressed the old stock and caused them to die, but not convinced with such reasoning. All been removed, but fish still dying. Today last remaining fish gonne ,out of 40! I need to make sure nothing wrong with the pond before introducing new fish. Knowing the reason can help future prevention...
      Thank you

    2. #2
      Russell Peters's Avatar
      Russell Peters is offline Supporting Member
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      Were the “fan tail” Koi Israeli Koi?
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    3. #3
      Marilyn's Avatar
      Marilyn is offline Supporting Member ~ Koi Health Care Committee Member
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      I doubt stress was the factor. My best guess is you introduced either a parasite, bacteria or virus. Over the internet, it will be almost impossible for us to diagnose. I'm sorry you lost the last of the fish today. I wish you had found us a bit sooner as we could have attempted to stop the losses.

      I'm going to link to a sticky section here about koi health. I would suggest you print it out and start a binder. That way you have it available should you need it. With you being so isolated, getting medications will likely take some time and my advice would be to have enough on hand to do a full course of treatment (typically 3 doses) of parasite medications. The two we use most commonly are something for flukes (most of us prefer FlukeM as it treats flukes in the gills, the skin and in the blood), and a Malachite Green/Formalin combination. The brand names that come to mind in the US are Terminate and ProformC.

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/forum...re-Information

      Brush up on symptoms, it would be helpful if you could learn to scrape and scope for the presence of parasites. Stay on top of losses and as soon as you have an issue, be ready to take action.

      I have to be honest and say that not all illnesses are curable. I find it very concerning that the only koi you lost were from the existing population and not the new additions.
      With parasites, they are indiscriminate and will affect both old and new pond residents. Bacteria is often the same. Viruses, OTOH, no.
      It is possible for a koi to be exposed to a virus and become a carrier. That means the carrier can spread it to other koi that have not developed the antibodies to survive it. There is a very virulent one called KHV, or Koi Herpes Virus. Sadly, it's become quite common the last few years as it was exported from Japan and a number of breeders dealt with it. In years past, it would wipe out 80-90% of the koi, the survivors were carriers and put down. This new strain is not as lethal and many are carriers. I will be blunt and say that with what you described this sounds more likely since only the old koi, not the new additions, were the ones dying.
      There is no way of knowing for sure without necropsies testing the DNA of the koi.

      Going forward, when you have new fish you want to add, I would suggest you add a koi from the existing pond to the quarantined ones and leave it there for 30 days, no less. Maintain temps between 75-78F degrees.
      This is called a canary fish. Hopefully, it will react to anything the new fish have and you can deal with it in quarantine. It also will indicate if the new fish will be okay with the existing pond.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    4. #4
      graybird's Avatar
      graybird is offline Supporting Member ~ Koi Health Care Committee Member
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      Is it possible that something in your water supply has changed? In addition to the excellent advice Marilyn has provided, I would do side-by-side tests of your tap water and pond water, including chlorine and copper. How many plants do you have in the pond?

      If KHV is a possibility, you should check the Internet for typical pictures of fish affected by it to see if any of yours looked like that -- keeping in mind that not all show the characteristic sunken eyes and nose notch. If you suspect it, you will need to disinfect your pond and filtration thoroughly before adding fish again.
      Mary

    5. #5
      Zaman is offline Junior Member
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      Not imported from Israel, they came mixed in a batch I got as a gift to start the hydroponics .. from fish farms north of Cairo . it was obvious then , they are different but we researched and found ppl keep both types together without problems ..

    6. #6
      inazuma28 is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zaman View Post
      Not imported from Israel, they came mixed in a batch I got as a gift to start the hydroponics .. from fish farms north of Cairo . it was obvious then , they are different but we researched and found ppl keep both types together without problems ..
      It has nothing to do with having "fan tail" butterfly koi with standard fin koi. They are essencially the same and can be kept together. The only things that could cause this are water quality, parasites, bacteria, or viruses.

    7. #7
      Zaman is offline Junior Member
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      I sent samples of all ponds plus tap water for detailed testing in lab, awaiting results
      We regularly test water ourselves , since we bring it by trucks and pump it up into our water tanks .

      The only thing that changed, 5 weeks ago , electricity available 24 hours, good for fish( we were on generators 16 hrs max /day last 20 y) and summer has finished , temperatures went down in October 10c( from 38C to 28 C)
      Plants are booming and green during this period . This pond is protected from predators and sun by a thick wall of 5 m tall bamboo and other water plants , 2 m deep water and only one point ( waterfall) where one can be close to fish.
      very difficult to catch indeed , designed to watch it from above .


      I did reading about KHV as Marilyn suggested ...
      I did have 3 of the dead fish with the V on nose ( don’t know if they had it before ) and the temperature 28c is about right ..
      New fish were introduced on 5/10 and on 28/10 I knew there’s a serious problem when they didn’t want to eat in morning, just queuing by water source and swimming against currents ( 2 -3 weeks incubation ).
      I couldn’t catch them then , few days later all old fish became so lethargic and I could scoop them with net, did a salt bath and put them back .many didn’t like it , looked sick afterwards - some looked like a swim bladder problem , others got pink ish fins or white patches over night deteriorating , did a dip in methylene blue ,assuming it’s some sort of itch or bacteria . Those who didn’t get the dip ( too fast yo catch )seemed better off but suddenly died next day . By than more than 1/2 was dead . To catch all new fish had to empty the whole pond to get to them, hiding in between rocks, build a hospital pond for old girls, new ones went to a separate large pond ( using existing pond water to start it) .
      Removed every stone on bottom of pond , every root cut, only side wall plants left, dug out 10-20 cm deep into it and hosed everything multiple times and left to dry completely 4 days ( bamboo sponge ). We were thinking about leaving pool chlorine tabs there for few days but decided not to kill everything for no reason ...local breeders told us this happens with fan tails ..
      5 old fish were left when we filled the pond again , put them in with 2 of the new koi ( not fantails ) to see what will happen . Now I still have the two new small koi there , they’re constantly nibbling on roots but so shy they wouldn’t come up to eat any fish food I throw . The other 6 of “new fan tails “ are in their new pond, also very shy, but eating fish food , mostly after I leave , also nibbling on roots and plants . Didn’t have courage to introduce more fish to large pond , every day I want to give those two some friends but I’m scared I’ll just kill more fish ..
      What is puzzling me is only old fish died . New fish came in two batches . There are 6 fish we introduced to large pond almost a year ago , as a baby , those are still all alive together with the fan tails in a new pond . These haven’t met until 4/10 if it was kHV , shouldn’t they be dad by now too ?
      I’m observing and measuring for now .
      Many thank for the very useful advices this forum provides ��

    8. #8
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      We're covering a lot of issues here and without a lot of clarity. Mass losses are often that way but I feel it is prudent to address a couple of things.
      First, I would suggest you have testing available onsight for the following: ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, KH, pH and water temp. I'm not saying you don't, this is just to verify you do and for those that may be reading and not contributing.
      Second, you mentioned only a few with a notched nose. Candidly, a notched nose is typically related to dehydration. I know that sounds odd but they can get dehydrated. It is not uncommon to see this with a host of illnesses because dehydration is the end result of a lot of illnesses. KHV, Koi Herpes Virus, weakens their immune systems. The KHV is not what kills them, it it their weakened immune systems basically being exposed to what we commonly see as illnesses. So it could be Columnaris, a parasite such as costia, bacterial gill disease and so forth.

      I still find it concerning the only fish lost were those from your existing population as parasites, bacteria and water quality would affect the inhabitants indiscriminately. Are any of the existing koi ill or showing symptoms of illness?

      Regarding if the ones introduced a year ago should have exposed the virus to the population earlier, perhaps. KHV is a complex situation. Not all koi die of it and become carriers, the virus needs to break to expose koi. It's possible that there was a carrier in the original population but the virus had not broken so did not spread initially. At some point, it may have become active in the quarantined population. There are many scenarios where is could have broken in the quarantined population after you introduced the initial batch to your existing population.
      I wish I could be of more help but this is a tough thing to determine over the internet with limited testing resources. If you were in the US, I would suggest labs for you to submit samples so you could have certainty if KHV was the issue. Identifying it without a lab is going to be very difficult.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    9. #9
      SimonW is online now Senior Member
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      Is that all the old koi have died but not the fan-tail? Or they all died?

    10. #10
      kimini is offline Senior Member
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      Many freelance truckers carry a variety of liquids, so it may be possible that the truck carrying your water was carrying something toxic to fish on his previous trip.

    11. #11
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by SimonW View Post
      Is that all the old koi have died but not the fan-tail? Or they all died?
      Quote Originally Posted by Zaman View Post
      ..
      What is puzzling me is only old fish died . New fish came in two batches . ...
      Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
      Many freelance truckers carry a variety of liquids, so it may be possible that the truck carrying your water was carrying something toxic to fish on his previous trip.
      A logical question but I think it is unlikely since only the existing original koi were affected.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    12. #12
      Zaman is offline Junior Member
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      We have our own water truck and driver .
      Water is RO , but not ideal RO measures ( filters are adjusted ) so suitable for fish .
      Water comes from same source .

    13. #13
      Zaman is offline Junior Member
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      Only old fish died . All of them .
      There was one “new” kohaku ( not fantail ) who was in same new tank with fan tails (he was purchased with them and moved to main pond together with them ) , that went missing couple of days ago . We searched the area for remains in and out of pond, with dogs, didn’t find a single scale . Assuming a falcon stole him, cat would leave few scales somewhere .. It happened before with new pond, falcons stole few catfish . They are around :-(

    14. #14
      Zaman is offline Junior Member
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      Update
      The lab water tests results still didn’t come.
      We do have all the mentioned tests available. We were doing tests periodically and seasonably . Now we test daily .
      The dead fish who had v notch looked somewhat slim and strangely week , hedydrated sounds very appropriate .
      I’m watching all remaining fish closely every day . New pond residents ( all larger fan tails are very shy and mainly on bottom of the 1.5 m deep pond , they eat but they are very careful about it, and quickly return down to safety .
      Main tank 2 small residents are just as shy but don’t eat any fish food at all . They run to hide when I throw it . Instead they nibble on plants who are booming after the massive trim we did there . Hydroponics residents ( mainly very small koi and fan tails ) are friendly , always come when they see us, always eat with great appetite. Few seem to have strange looking eyes , is if rounder but with a layer on them ( like when a cat has an eye infection ) . It could be that I’m watching them too much .. I can clearly recognize many girls , which I wasn’t able a month ago . I’m probably studying them too much
      It’s not possible to do a dna testing for animals in general , all these tests are sent to Europe for analysis and very expensive and complicated . I could find a way to bring a sample to Israel if anyone knew of a facility there or a contact .
      We’re 40min from border ( ilat) , that would be a challenge but doable , I wold feel better knowing what exactly happened in our pond .
      Thank you again for all the valuable support and information . I don’t know what I would have done without you

    15. #15
      Marilyn's Avatar
      Marilyn is offline Supporting Member ~ Koi Health Care Committee Member
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      This is tough because of your location. The best I can think of is to contact these people and see if they either can accept samples and do testing for you or if they can recommend someone closer to your location. There is a phone number if you would like to attempt this via a call.

      http://www.kennebecbio.com/contact-us/

      I wouldn't recommend sending them to Israel as, to the best of my knowledge, they have been doing vaccines for KHV for years. I don't have a lot of the background on it, most was before I even got into koi, but I think I heard that though the koi survived they became carriers. Any koi exposed that was not vaccinated contracted KHV.
      Regarding the behavior, that doesn't sound all that unusual for new inhabitants especially if they are smaller. If there aren't many koi in each tank this will also affect their behavior. I have found that my koi lost some of their fear once there were 5-6 occupants in smaller tanks.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

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