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    Thread: Medication Help

    1. #21
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by mplskoi View Post
      Yes. It seems nearly a crime that it doesn't.
      About two years ago I gave a talk at the local koi club about the importance of KH. I gave out a dozen KH test kits (at my expense). A few months later I was asking club members if they were surprised with their results when they finally tested KH. One club member said something that I will never forget. "I did lose an entire tank due to a PH crash, but I have never had any issues related to low KH"! Oh my. Face palm!
      Kudos for doing the talk and ponying up the kits.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    2. #22
      ademink's Avatar
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      I may have missed it but how long before the histopath comes back?

      If we didn't have a vet involved and I was just going off reported issues, I would advise (in addition to addressing the KH/water issues above) doing a shotgun treatment for parasites (BSDT and Praziquantel or Fluke-M). My personal experience is that spitting out food and head shaking is indicative of flukes.
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member



    3. #23
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      I agree, initial problems reported could be birth defects, but later flashing, spitting, etc indicates the stress has allowed parasites to get a hold and in addition to getting the KH and other water parameters strong enough to provide a good healing environment, the treatment with a malachite green/formalin mixture and Fluke M or Prazi, would be a good start in stopping some of the symptoms.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    4. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      It isn't necessarily the higher reading is the goal but the stability surely is. A pH change beyond .2 is undesirable and a stressor. If the change is frequent (not enough KH to keep it stable) you could be seeing multiple pH swings over the course of the day.

      Water changes with a temperature change over a few degrees difference is undesirable and a stressor. I hope you are keeping the temp the same as the tank when you are putting in that much water daily.
      If you're changing out that much water, maybe try not doing it all at once. Split it up.
      Why are you changing that much water daily?

      Stability is key. Fry are more fragile than mature fish.

      KH is what keeps your pH from changing. Unless you were doing a trickle of fresh water directly to the tank, it's easy to buffer the water with baking soda to raise the KH. I've included a screenshot of the KH calculator in one of the tabs at the top of the forum.
      If you have a gram scale, just add 11 grams with each water change (50%) or break it up if doing smaller ones. 11 grams is a scant tablespoon.

      Attachment 597313

      So again, it's not the higher value of pH that is good but rather that the KH is stable enough to prevent the pH from changing much.

      I'm linking something written by a Health Committee member:
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...ns-and-Newbies

      and one on an aquarium site:
      https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfis...uriums.113548/
      The vet told me to do a 50% water change 12 hours after each dose of the antibiotic. I think that is way to much for them. I am using 5 gal. buckets filled at the kitchen sink, then lugging them over to the tank. I empty the same way. I have 4 thermometers - leave 2 in the tank,, different ends, top and bottom, 1 in each bucket. I am doing my best to get an exact temp. I am hoping all these water changes will not crash my cycle.

    5. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      I agree, initial problems reported could be birth defects, but later flashing, spitting, etc indicates the stress has allowed parasites to get a hold and in addition to getting the KH and other water parameters strong enough to provide a good healing environment, the treatment with a malachite green/formalin mixture and Fluke M or Prazi, would be a good start in stopping some of the symptoms.
      What about the antibiotic I am currently giving? I should wait for those to finish or the Histopath? Can I treat the tank with the Malachite green/formalin or would I have to put them in a temp tote?

    6. #26
      libralady is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by ademink View Post
      I may have missed it but how long before the histopath comes back?

      If we didn't have a vet involved and I was just going off reported issues, I would advise (in addition to addressing the KH/water issues above) doing a shotgun treatment for parasites (BSDT and Praziquantel or Fluke-M). My personal experience is that spitting out food and head shaking is indicative of flukes.
      I haven't heard back from the vet-I am hoping by Sat. as he said 7 days and that was last Sat.

    7. #27
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by libralady View Post
      The vet told me to do a 50% water change 12 hours after each dose of the antibiotic. I think that is way to much for them. I am using 5 gal. buckets filled at the kitchen sink, then lugging them over to the tank. I empty the same way. I have 4 thermometers - leave 2 in the tank,, different ends, top and bottom, 1 in each bucket. I am doing my best to get an exact temp. I am hoping all these water changes will not crash my cycle.
      They won't as long as your water is properly buffered, that is where the KH figures into it.

      What is the current salt level?
      I do not use MG/F with salt above .1, some say .3 is okay but I know people that have lost fish trying it.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    8. #28
      Melinda1102 is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by libralady View Post
      The vet told me to do a 50% water change 12 hours after each dose of the antibiotic. I think that is way to much for them. I am using 5 gal. buckets filled at the kitchen sink, then lugging them over to the tank. I empty the same way. I have 4 thermometers - leave 2 in the tank,, different ends, top and bottom, 1 in each bucket. I am doing my best to get an exact temp. I am hoping all these water changes will not crash my cycle.
      The antibiotics alone will affect your cycle. The cycle is one of the main reason you need the KH your good bacteria need it to survive.
      Learn by experience.................Preferably other peoples

    9. #29
      libralady is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Melinda1102 View Post
      The antibiotics alone will affect your cycle. The cycle is one of the main reason you need the KH your good bacteria need it to survive.
      The vet said not to use baking soda, so I have to find a reliable buffer. I have been researching and found this product. Does anyone have experience with it and does it raise the salt level the same as aquarium salt? I have BB in the fridge, should I put enough of that in for 40gals. to help? These results are from last night.

      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      They won't as long as your water is properly buffered, that is where the KH figures into it.

      What is the current salt level?
      I do not use MG/F with salt above .1, some say .3 is okay but I know people that have lost fish trying it.
      Salt level last night is at 0.04% KH=2 drops and GH=3 drops. see above about vet and baking soda. Thoughts on this Mineral salt? Name is Azoo koi mineral salt.

      Also there are snails in there, am I killing them with this? 2 are getting white on shells.
      Attached Images Attached Images   

    10. #30
      ademink's Avatar
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      Does this vet specialize in fish?

      Salt can definitely kill the snails.
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member



    11. #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by libralady View Post
      The vet said not to use baking soda, so I have to find a reliable buffer. I have been researching and found this product. Does anyone have experience with it and does it raise the salt level the same as aquarium salt? I have BB in the fridge, should I put enough of that in for 40gals. to help? These results are from last night.



      Salt level last night is at 0.04% KH=2 drops and GH=3 drops. see above about vet and baking soda. Thoughts on this Mineral salt? Name is Azoo koi mineral salt.

      Also there are snails in there, am I killing them with this? 2 are getting white on shells.
      Quote Originally Posted by ademink View Post
      Does this vet specialize in fish?

      Salt can definitely kill the snails.
      Yes, salt will decidedly kill snails.
      Regarding the salt, why not just use the big bag salt found at Home Depot, Lowes or Ace. They come in 40lb bags and sell for around $5-6. Make sure to get the pure salt, no additives. We go through copious amounts of salt here for the fish. I'm married to a koi dealer.
      There is no need to spend loads of money on a specialty salt.
      I have no clue why a vet would not think baking soda was an acceptable carbonate source. You can spend loads more on aquarium based products that often are almost entirely the same thing.

      Name:  Screen Shot 2019-10-25 at 2.47.37 PM.png
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      The test with a zero nitrate reading is concerning. It's possible to have a zero, most common when a tank/pond is getting established and nitrates are not yet occurring .
      Most often it is that the test wasn't performed correctly, shaking the bottles the proper amount of time. Nitrate readings indicate the tank has cycled. It may be that your 50% water changes are keeping it in check but as I said, I took notice of it.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    12. #32
      libralady is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by ademink View Post
      Does this vet specialize in fish?

      Salt can definitely kill the snails.
      He is listed as Exotic and caring for fish.

    13. #33
      libralady is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      Yes, salt will decidedly kill snails.
      Regarding the salt, why not just use the big bag salt found at Home Depot, Lowes or Ace. They come in 40lb bags and sell for around $5-6. Make sure to get the pure salt, no additives. We go through copious amounts of salt here for the fish. I'm married to a koi dealer.
      There is no need to spend loads of money on a specialty salt.
      I have no clue why a vet would not think baking soda was an acceptable carbonate source. You can spend loads more on aquarium based products that often are almost entirely the same thing.

      Name:  Screen Shot 2019-10-25 at 2.47.37 PM.png
Views: 57
Size:  37.6 KB

      The test with a zero nitrate reading is concerning. It's possible to have a zero, most common when a tank/pond is getting established and nitrates are not yet occurring .
      Most often it is that the test wasn't performed correctly, shaking the bottles the proper amount of time. Nitrate readings indicate the tank has cycled. It may be that your 50% water changes are keeping it in check but as I said, I took notice of it.
      My main inquiry about the product was the buffering and vitamins advertised. I wasn't trying to salt more.

      Yes I am concerned about the Nitrates also as they have been 5ppm. Sat. was the last daily 40-50% WC, so I am going to check again.

    14. #34
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      The Histopath came back and didn't find any infectious properties. Findings are differential for Vit. C deficiency. So the vet wants me to add leafy green veggies, spirulina, Vit. C that goes in the water and Malachite Green for the white spots. Something is depleting the vitimins as I have food with them in it. See photo of foods I have in the house and please help with what else to use. Also how do I get vitamin C that goes in the water. He did not provide a source, only human grade or aquarium. Amazon only has 1 from Kent for Marine and it says to have a KH of 8-12. He doesn't want me using Baking Soda because he doesn't want the PH that high. I was looking up Vit. C and found an article saying that Sodium Ascorbate doesn't affect PH as much as Ascorbic Acid, but it didn't provide what source came from what products. Can anyone help with this? What leafy green veggies and will they mold my sponge filters? I could only find one Vitamin close to me for purchase by boyd enterprises. I put those in on Sat. they seemed a little better and perkier, but it says 1 time a week. 40 drops and drops on food once daily.

      Also the medicine he sent for me to get, I can't find on Amazon either and was wondering what I could use instead. Photo provided. Or if I can use it with whatever salt is left in there.

      Last I found a product by Fritz saying it raises KH without the PH bounce. I just can't seem to find it at the moment to provide a photo, but will do it on my work break. I'm wondering if this would work.

      I don't even know if this is the problem, could all these symptoms be from just that? They're still hiding facing the bottom of the tank, laying on their sides and swimming a bit drunk. Trying to eat, but spitting out food.
      Attached Images Attached Images    

    15. #35
      mplskoi is offline Supporting Member
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      I would dump your vet in a millisecond. You need to add baking soda and raise your KH to at least 6 drops.

    16. #36
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      Libralady, you've got underlying water quality issues (very low KH) that simply do not provide a healthy environment for healing.
      I do not understand wanting to spend money on packaged products that do the same thing as baking soda to raise the KH.
      Your fish and filters need a carbonate source and baking soda is readily available. Any of us that have low KH in our source water have used it for years. I personally have used it for over a decade. Carbonate gets depleted in a tank/pond. If you don't replenish it, it does not just reappear. Some are lucky enough to have a good amount in their source water, others not. That is where baking soda comes in to help. I spent the time to do all the calculations for you if you use baking soda.

      If you feel the need to go with a packaged pond/aquarium buffer, go for it but get your KH to 6 drops and maintain it there. It's really that simple.

      Regarding vitamin deficiency and white patches, I would imagine fish living in pH crash possible water would exhibit both. Fish will throw slime coat as a protection from water not buffered well. It can give them a hazy appearance. It can even be stringy. Address your water quality then you can start doing treatments.
      If the water is not buffered then they probably are not eating well. They haven't been doing well for almost a week. I imagine them not ingesting all that fry/young fish need would affect their vitamin levels.


      You showed a MG/F product, again, do not use this with salt. I would not begin any treatments until the water quality was better as water quality can be a killer.

      --------------

      https://users.cs.duke.edu/~narten/faq/chemistry.html
      To raise the KH without raising the GH, add sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3), commonly known as baking soda. One teaspoon per 50 Liters raises the KH by about 4 dH. Sodium bicarbonate drives the pH towards an equilibrium value of 8.2.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    17. #37
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      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    18. #38
      libralady is offline Senior Member
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      Thank you that was a good read.

    19. #39
      libralady is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      Libralady, you've got underlying water quality issues (very low KH) that simply do not provide a healthy environment for healing.
      I do not understand wanting to spend money on packaged products that do the same thing as baking soda to raise the KH.
      Your fish and filters need a carbonate source and baking soda is readily available. Any of us that have low KH in our source water have used it for years. I personally have used it for over a decade. Carbonate gets depleted in a tank/pond. If you don't replenish it, it does not just reappear. Some are lucky enough to have a good amount in their source water, others not. That is where baking soda comes in to help. I spent the time to do all the calculations for you if you use baking soda.

      If you feel the need to go with a packaged pond/aquarium buffer, go for it but get your KH to 6 drops and maintain it there. It's really that simple.

      Regarding vitamin deficiency and white patches, I would imagine fish living in pH crash possible water would exhibit both. Fish will throw slime coat as a protection from water not buffered well. It can give them a hazy appearance. It can even be stringy. Address your water quality then you can start doing treatments.
      If the water is not buffered then they probably are not eating well. They haven't been doing well for almost a week. I imagine them not ingesting all that fry/young fish need would affect their vitamin levels.


      You showed a MG/F product, again, do not use this with salt. I would not begin any treatments until the water quality was better as water quality can be a killer.

      --------------

      https://users.cs.duke.edu/~narten/faq/chemistry.html
      What should my GH be? As I have not been paying much attention to that.

      I am just scared to add something that is going to raise PH to a high amount and then it could lower fairly quickly before I get the KH up to 6 drops. That is the most frustrating thing. I don't know how long it will hold it I raise it beyond the tap source. It's at about 7.4-7.6 since Sat. If I bring that up with baking soda, how fast will it hold before dropping back to where it is?

    20. #40
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      Your PH should not drop if you keep your KH up. I would not shoot for just 6 drops that is the minimal for your bio to work. I try to keep mine close to 10 drops somewhere between 8 to 12. If it drops to 8 I add more baking soda. And with every water change you can add a little to keep it stable. Baking soda is very cheap and easy to find. If you look at some of the product put out for ponds or aquariums read the label I have seen a few that are basically baking soda in water that you would pay 15 for something to treat 200 gallons when you could do it with a 50 cent box of baking soda five or six times.
      Learn by experience.................Preferably other peoples

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