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    Thread: Medication Help

    1. #1
      libralady is offline Senior Member
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      Medication Help

      Hi, I have some koi fry in a 40 gal. tank inside that are having trouble. 2 had crooked backs and a 3rd that was normal developed the same arched back. Behavior is the same-Trying to swim, laying on the back. I also have a few with white on the fins. I took 4 of them to a vet and he euthanized the 2 with crooked backs and sent them for a Histopath. The other one that started with the arch, was swimming up right at the vet, so he sent it home with antibiotics for the whole tank. They are Trimethoprim/Sulfamethox 480mg. 6 tabs at night for 12 hours followed by 50% water change in the morning. He also wanted me to add 2 cups of pond salt to the 40 gal. Then when I asked him about the snails and live plants in the tank he sent me this photo of the amount of salt to add. I have no idea what this means and can't find out how to convert it to %. I have an old pondcare salt level test kit and the first night it read 0.08%-then he told me to use the new formula. So the next day I did my water change and it tested 0.06%. Today I did only about 40% water change as the fry are having a hard time with that much water. I just got some stresscoat+. I was only using dechlorinator before.
      Tonight is going to be the 3rd. dose and they are getting worse. Well more of them are becoming infected with symptoms. I emailed the vet and he just said to continue until the histopath comes back.

      I am asking for advice from anyone that has gone through this medicine and procedure or knows about it. Should I use the full dose of strsscoat for the 40gals. tomorrow even though I will not be adding 40gals? Can anyone explain to me what the salt chart means? Do any of these symptoms sound familiar to anyone?

      Here are the tests from last night--pretty stable for a couple weeks. Also a photo of white spots and the tank. The divider is not in anymore. And the salt chart he sent me that I don't understand.

      2 videos-The morning after the first dose and just now. First dose was Sat. night.

      https://youtu.be/KJS6C9zZAck Day after


      https://youtu.be/zBs-dOYJDFE Just now
      Attached Images Attached Images     

    2. #2
      icu2's Avatar
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      I've never used the medications you have before so I can't be of much help with those... but can say that if
      the Vet is suggesting 7 parts per thousand of salt, it would equate to 0.7%. Percent is basically another way
      of saying parts per hundred.
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    3. #3
      KOIAnon is offline Member
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      I may have asked this already but you're not using any liquid carbon product for plants, are you?

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      libralady is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I've never used the medications you have before so I can't be of much help with those... but can say that if
      the Vet is suggesting 7 parts per thousand of salt, it would equate to 0.7%. Percent is basically another way
      of saying parts per hundred.
      Thank you for helping me understand that. Is this safe for snails?

      Quote Originally Posted by KOIAnon View Post
      I may have asked this already but you're not using any liquid carbon product for plants, are you?
      The only thing I have used is Flourish and It's been 3 weeks since I put that in. I was using Prime before for all water changes and during cycle. Have been cycled for 3 weeks now.

      Have either of you heard of those symptoms before with koi?

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      With crooked backs have you checked for an electrical issue? Also what is the white stuff in the bag towards the back left?
      Learn by experience.................Preferably other peoples

    6. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by Melinda1102 View Post
      With crooked backs have you checked for an electrical issue? Also what is the white stuff in the bag towards the back left?
      Biofilter media
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    7. #7
      Melinda1102 is offline Supporting Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by yorkie View Post
      Biofilter media
      Was just making sure it was not zeolite. If it was and you added salt it would release all ammonia it stored.
      Learn by experience.................Preferably other peoples

    8. #8
      libralady is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Melinda1102 View Post
      With crooked backs have you checked for an electrical issue? Also what is the white stuff in the bag towards the back left?
      The only thing I have are 2 sponge filters, an air stone and heater. I put my hands in the water all the time-so I don't think they are getting zapped.

    9. #9
      libralady is offline Senior Member
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      Here is a video from tonight. They are getting worse, and I don't know how to stop it. I keep sending the vet videos and he said last night to just continue. Before the treatment-the bigger ones were all vibrant and swimming around. Now they are laying down with clamped fins and hiding in the plants. I have to do something or they are all going to be dead by the time histopath is back. Do that many 50% water changes do them in or is it the amount of antibiotic being administered. Each tab is 480 mg. so 6 tabs a night is 2880mg per night for 12 hours. That seems like way to much from what I have seen on-line. Vet just said continue-I think he is getting frustrated, cause I keep emailing him with videos. If it's a vitamin deficiency what is the best thing to get? My pond koi I will soak there food in squeezed oranges, I don't know if I can do that in the 40gal tank. Will the acid cause a problem or will the 2 sponge filters be enough to take care of it? Also What about B-6? I read that is used for some things. How can I get that into them?

      I saw Koi Vital is that any good?

      https://youtu.be/IEwIvfK-GP8

    10. #10
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      Looking at the pH test kit, it shows the wide range pH, which is of little or no value except to tell you whether you need the standard pH test kit or the high range test kit. Typically we would be using the high range test kit as it has much closer readability. Even more important a test is the KH test, which will indicate the pH stability over the day night changes.

      The symptoms that you first described sounded like normal birth defects, but with the change in the habits of the fish, there is something that is stressing them out. It could be the salt, it could be something with the water. I would go back to using the Safe and treat for the entire tank volume. It will not cause problems and will prevent problems with ammonia, which will be present in your tap water if your water is treated with chloramines and will also take care of any differences in the level of chlorine added. Get a KH test kit and assure yourself of a minimum KH of 100ppm (6 drops) by adding baking soda if needed to increase to that level. Also get the high range pH test kit. pH will be somewhere around 8 to 8.3.

      I am not familiar with the antibiotics chosen, so I don't know what side effects you should watch for.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    11. #11
      libralady is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      Looking at the pH test kit, it shows the wide range pH, which is of little or no value except to tell you whether you need the standard pH test kit or the high range test kit. Typically we would be using the high range test kit as it has much closer readability. Even more important a test is the KH test, which will indicate the pH stability over the day night changes.

      The symptoms that you first described sounded like normal birth defects, but with the change in the habits of the fish, there is something that is stressing them out. It could be the salt, it could be something with the water. I would go back to using the Safe and treat for the entire tank volume. It will not cause problems and will prevent problems with ammonia, which will be present in your tap water if your water is treated with chloramines and will also take care of any differences in the level of chlorine added. Get a KH test kit and assure yourself of a minimum KH of 100ppm (6 drops) by adding baking soda if needed to increase to that level. Also get the high range pH test kit. pH will be somewhere around 8 to 8.3.

      I am not familiar with the antibiotics chosen, so I don't know what side effects you should watch for.
      I got some stress coat + and put that in today with the water change--It called for 5ml per 10 gals or double for damage. I added about 30ml in total. And a tad more salt. I just checked the salt with an old salt test and it reads 0.08% But it is from 2007, so I don't even know if that is accurate. Can't find a new one anywhere. One of the fry tonight, the one with white spots, was shaking and trying to get something off of it. More of them are hiding in the plants--some upside down, one on it's back. I fed flakes soaked in water with crushed brine shrimp--they were trying to eat. But they would chew and just spit it out. It's like they can't swallow. I noticed a few look a bit sunken in. Could they have a parasite or internal bugs? This is driving me crazy. I hate doing the antibiotics as it looks so drastic and then in the morning I have to change all that water out. I hope that is not killing them.
      Did you mean to add Prime when I add the orange or add the Prime for ammonia if I have that? Here are the PH tests from tonight. KH is 2 drops as my tap is that. I saw this and was going to try and find it near me. Would you be adding any enzymes or clay to the tank also?

      https://www.sera.de/us/product/pond/...-multivitamin/
      Attached Images Attached Images  

    12. #12
      Melinda1102 is offline Supporting Member
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      If I am out of line one of the higher people please feel free to delete this but going to offer my opinion on what i see in the videos. If this was my tank this is what I would do. All the unnecessary items in the tank but the fish and live plant and filters. That sharp rock thing would scare me if they would start flashing. And the heater in the house should not be needed unless you are raising the temp on the tank to mid to upper 80s to treat ich. (heater being gone less likely to have an electrical issue) And now what i have observed. The fish seem to be always fighting the current of the tank. It may be why they are hiding in the plants to get a break and could be the stresser. Babies need a calm area to rest I have had to play with my pumps and restrict them a lot even in a pond. I would turn off the air stone for an hour or 2 and see if they begin to act better. If not you can always turn in back on. Your sponge filters seem to be putting out a good bit of air themselves so the air stone may not be needed.
      Learn by experience.................Preferably other peoples

    13. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by Melinda1102 View Post
      If I am out of line one of the higher people please feel free to delete this but going to offer my opinion on what i see in the videos. If this was my tank this is what I would do. All the unnecessary items in the tank but the fish and live plant and filters. That sharp rock thing would scare me if they would start flashing. And the heater in the house should not be needed unless you are raising the temp on the tank to mid to upper 80s to treat ich. (heater being gone less likely to have an electrical issue) And now what i have observed. The fish seem to be always fighting the current of the tank. It may be why they are hiding in the plants to get a break and could be the stresser. Babies need a calm area to rest I have had to play with my pumps and restrict them a lot even in a pond. I would turn off the air stone for an hour or 2 and see if they begin to act better. If not you can always turn in back on. Your sponge filters seem to be putting out a good bit of air themselves so the air stone may not be needed.
      Not bad suggestions but they are not imminently fatal.

      Libralady, you water parameters are out of whack. You have a KH of 2, an indeterminate pH reading. The level RichToyBox is recommending is roughly 3x what your tank has. Did we get an ammonia reading?

      I agree the wide range is basically useless. Get an API Master Freshwater Test kit. It will have ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH (low and high range). Toss the low range, you won't need it. Put an API KH test kit in its place.

      I'm not saying they may not have an illness but a KH 2 water is not conducive to sustaining them. Period.
      You have to get the water healthy for them and deal with the symptoms they exhibit when the water is healthy.

      Did you use Stress Coat or Stress Coat Plus?
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    14. #14
      libralady is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Melinda1102 View Post
      If I am out of line one of the higher people please feel free to delete this but going to offer my opinion on what i see in the videos. If this was my tank this is what I would do. All the unnecessary items in the tank but the fish and live plant and filters. That sharp rock thing would scare me if they would start flashing. And the heater in the house should not be needed unless you are raising the temp on the tank to mid to upper 80s to treat ich. (heater being gone less likely to have an electrical issue) And now what i have observed. The fish seem to be always fighting the current of the tank. It may be why they are hiding in the plants to get a break and could be the stresser. Babies need a calm area to rest I have had to play with my pumps and restrict them a lot even in a pond. I would turn off the air stone for an hour or 2 and see if they begin to act better. If not you can always turn in back on. Your sponge filters seem to be putting out a good bit of air themselves so the air stone may not be needed.
      Thank you for that. That rock is a live Lime that was recommended to raise PH and KH. It worked in the beginning. I can try less air-just wanted to make sure they have enough oxygen

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      libralady is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      Not bad suggestions but they are not imminently fatal.

      Libralady, you water parameters are out of whack. You have a KH of 2, an indeterminate pH reading. The level RichToyBox is recommending is roughly 3x what your tank has. Did we get an ammonia reading?

      I agree the wide range is basically useless. Get an API Master Freshwater Test kit. It will have ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH (low and high range). Toss the low range, you won't need it. Put an API KH test kit in its place.

      I'm not saying they may not have an illness but a KH 2 water is not conducive to sustaining them. Period.
      You have to get the water healthy for them and deal with the symptoms they exhibit when the water is healthy.

      Did you use Stress Coat or Stress Coat Plus?
      Yes this has been an ongoing issue, as my water source is 2 drops. The fact that I am doing 40-50% water changes daily right now is going to make it hard to do much about it, right? I thought the up-down of PH was worse than a steady, even if it was low. I have the master kit, just didn't take all the tests last night. I will do that today and post later. I used Stress Coat +.

      Please explain what KH does for them other than a stable PH at a higher reading. I mean health wise. Thank You

    16. #16
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by libralady View Post
      Yes this has been an ongoing issue, as my water source is 2 drops. The fact that I am doing 40-50% water changes daily right now is going to make it hard to do much about it, right? I thought the up-down of PH was worse than a steady, even if it was low. I have the master kit, just didn't take all the tests last night. I will do that today and post later. I used Stress Coat +.

      Please explain what KH does for them other than a stable PH at a higher reading. I mean health wise. Thank You
      It isn't necessarily the higher reading is the goal but the stability surely is. A pH change beyond .2 is undesirable and a stressor. If the change is frequent (not enough KH to keep it stable) you could be seeing multiple pH swings over the course of the day.

      Water changes with a temperature change over a few degrees difference is undesirable and a stressor. I hope you are keeping the temp the same as the tank when you are putting in that much water daily.
      If you're changing out that much water, maybe try not doing it all at once. Split it up.
      Why are you changing that much water daily?

      Stability is key. Fry are more fragile than mature fish.

      KH is what keeps your pH from changing. Unless you were doing a trickle of fresh water directly to the tank, it's easy to buffer the water with baking soda to raise the KH. I've included a screenshot of the KH calculator in one of the tabs at the top of the forum.
      If you have a gram scale, just add 11 grams with each water change (50%) or break it up if doing smaller ones. 11 grams is a scant tablespoon.

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      So again, it's not the higher value of pH that is good but rather that the KH is stable enough to prevent the pH from changing much.

      I'm linking something written by a Health Committee member:
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...ns-and-Newbies

      and one on an aquarium site:
      https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfis...uriums.113548/
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    17. #17
      Melinda1102 is offline Supporting Member
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      [QUOTE=libralady;2732617]Yes this has been an ongoing issue, as my water source is 2 drops. The fact that I am doing 40-50% water changes daily right now is going to make it hard to do much about it, right? I thought the up-down of PH was worse than a steady, even if it was low. I have the master kit, just didn't take all the tests last night. I will do that today and post later. I used Stress Coat +.

      Please explain what KH does for them other than a stable PH at a higher reading. I mean health wise. Thank You[/QU


      Your nitrifying bacteria need it to survive you will always be battling with the cycle with the kh. And your plants I do not know if you test at night they will cause a ph swing and the kh stops that from happening. And your fish need the calcium and magnesium from kh and gh to do basis things like regulate blood salt levels. Your ph is already up to close to 8 it looks like maybe i am seeing it wrong. But adding baking soda will only bring it to about 8.2 so its not a big swing and if you add a little to start with and some every few hours to get it up to 8.2 then you can keep it there. Baking soda is the cheap easy and readiliy accessible way to raise it.
      Learn by experience.................Preferably other peoples

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    19. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by mplskoi View Post
      I am always amazed at how often after all things are considered it comes back to KH.
      KH
      KH
      KH
      KH.
      Without the basic stability that adequate KH yields, it makes everything else worse. Stable buffered water allows them to do quite a bit of healing on their own.
      It's the reason we start with water. No point in throwing in copious amounts of medications and treatments at them if the water quality is not conducive to health.
      It's a huge disappointment to me that the API kit doesn't include a KH test.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      It's a huge disappointment to me that the API kit doesn't include a KH test.
      Yes. It seems nearly a crime that it doesn't.
      About two years ago I gave a talk at the local koi club about the importance of KH. I gave out a dozen KH test kits (at my expense). A few months later I was asking club members if they were surprised with their results when they finally tested KH. One club member said something that I will never forget. "I did lose an entire tank due to a PH crash, but I have never had any issues related to low KH"! Oh my. Face palm!

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