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    Thread: Asagi x Blue Shusui

    1. #1
      Hope J is offline Senior Member
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      Asagi x Blue Shusui

      Would crossing an Asagi with a Blue Shusui result in any fry that are a deeper Blue Asagi?

    2. #2
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      I'm not quite sure what you mean by Blue Shusui.

      There are different types of Asagi. Your best bet would be to start with the type of Asagi you prefer:

      http://valentinac.com/koi/asagi.html

      IOW, purchase Narumi Asagi.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    3. #3
      ricshaw is online now Supporting Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hope J View Post
      Would crossing an Asagi with a Blue Shusui result in any fry that are a deeper Blue Asagi?
      "Shusui" is just a special name for a Doitsu Asagi.

    4. #4
      Rob Forbis is offline Senior Member
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      Hope we appreciate your enthusiasm. Blue and purple and green are colors that Japanese koi farmers have spent lifetimes pursuing to little avail. Koi, especially young koi, can be a powder blue but carp do not have the skin cell structures required for true blue which could then be filtered to show purple or green (like surgeon fish or green iguanas). There are various threads that discuss this. Blue is one of those colors that initially interest us (a worthless blue asagi was the first koi I bought). The same can be said for red. In the beginning we fancy blood red hi but over time appreciate the variations on orange.

    5. #5
      Hope J is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Rob Forbis View Post
      Hope we appreciate your enthusiasm. Blue and purple and green are colors that Japanese koi farmers have spent lifetimes pursuing to little avail. Koi, especially young koi, can be a powder blue but carp do not have the skin cell structures required for true blue which could then be filtered to show purple or green (like surgeon fish or green iguanas). There are various threads that discuss this. Blue is one of those colors that initially interest us (a worthless blue asagi was the first koi I bought). The same can be said for red. In the beginning we fancy blood red hi but over time appreciate the variations on orange.
      Caught me again. I'm obsessed with purple. I thought maybe I could start by breeding super blue Asagis and then cross them with a red leatherskin and hope for some fry with a red base overlapped with blue Asagi scales. I'm guessing the Japanese have probably already tried it.

    6. #6
      Mes's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hope J View Post
      Caught me again. I'm obsessed with purple. I thought maybe I could start by breeding super blue Asagis and then cross them with a red leatherskin and hope for some fry with a red base overlapped with blue Asagi scales. I'm guessing the Japanese have probably already tried it.
      Animal genetics aren't like paint, you can't just mix blue and red to become purple. It's not how it works. I'm sure that if it was possible it would have been done already. They just don't have the miRNA for purple.

    7. #7
      Hope J is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Mes View Post
      Animal genetics aren't like paint, you can't just mix blue and red to become purple. It's not how it works. I'm sure that if it was possible it would have been done already. They just don't have the miRNA for purple.
      I get that. I figured with a base color of red and then the blue scales from the Asagi would overlap and be purple. Not a blended color, just one on top of another.

    8. #8
      Orlando is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hope J View Post
      Would crossing an Asagi with a Blue Shusui result in any fry that are a deeper Blue Asagi?
      Hope with that cross you will end up with these;
      Asagi
      Shusui
      Benigoi
      Shiro muji
      And wouldn't be surprised if you see a few chagoi.

    9. #9
      Hope J is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Orlando View Post
      Hope with that cross you will end up with these;
      Asagi
      Shusui
      Benigoi
      Shiro muji
      And wouldn't be surprised if you see a few chagoi.
      I'd actually be happy with all of those

    10. #10
      No Buddy is offline Senior Member
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      Depending on the genetics of the parent fish, it is possible to get blue'er fry. You will most likely get some Asagi and some Shusui looking fry , but lots of strange things can come from this pairing as well because of how far back Shusui and Asagi bloodlines go. It also matters and will change the results depending on which is the male and which is the female of the pairing of Asagi/Shusui. You will also get an armored scaled fish that looks like the cross they are. They are fully scaled but with the larger Doitsu type of scales that some hobbyist call
      dragon" scales. You can also get some Asagi that fail to get the black reticulation in the scales. They end up just solid powder blue on top/ Kinda cool looking though. You can get these from normal Asagi spawns as well and we cull them normally. Here is the only photo I could find right now This particular one doesn't have good marking as the Hi in too high and too much and very sloppy.
      Attached Images Attached Images  
      Last edited by No Buddy; 4 Weeks Ago at 10:02 PM.

    11. #11
      No Buddy is offline Senior Member
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      BTW you can get purple in Koi as well as some other odd colors. However in the case of purple it is normally produced by one color being on top of another in the color plates. Like a Budo Goromo as a grape color.In doitsu type fish you can get a closer to purple color with this same type of layering. It is an illusion so to speak However, getting these purples and some other colors stand alone is not easy and has yet to be done with consistency.

    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by No Buddy View Post
      BTW you can get purple in Koi as well as some other odd colors. However in the case of purple it is normally produced by one color being on top of another in the color plates. Like a Budo Goromo as a grape color.In doitsu type fish you can get a closer to purple color with this same type of layering. It is an illusion so to speak However, getting these purples and some other colors stand alone is not easy and has yet to be done with consistency.
      I think this was along the lines of what Hope has in mind, based on post #7. I think grape color is one thing, and a clear purple (like beni) is another. I don't think we will ever really see a truly purple koi.

    13. #13
      Hope J is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Mes View Post
      I think this was along the lines of what Hope has in mind, based on post #7. I think grape color is one thing, and a clear purple (like beni) is another. I don't think we will ever really see a truly purple koi.
      Exactly what I want to do. It can be done with Asagi and Kohaku resulting in Goromo, so theoretically it *could* work with something similar if I can match the right Koi. That's why I want a solid red leatherskin, probably 2 or 3 actually and 2 or 3 Asagi for starters. Cull will go to the Bass (they are so sweet, they come when I call them and take treats almost from my fingers).

    14. #14
      Hope J is offline Senior Member
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      So if the Konjo Asagi is the bluest one, I should probably start there, correct?

      Can anyone post pictures of Magoi? I've googled them but I don't really trust the results.

    15. #15
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      Hope:

      To obtain an Asagi of the type you want, breeding it yourself is the most laborious and expensive way to go about it. The easiest and cheapest is to go to a Japanese breeder who specializes in Asagi and spending whatever price they are asking. For the fun of trying, however, DIY breeding is great. Just don't get high expectations. ....There are literally millions of Asagi hatched every year by the most skilled Asagi breeders in the world, who know from experience what to look for when culling. The great bulk of these are non-descript dark fish culled as quickly as they develop pigment. Out of those millions, it is arguable whether more than a hundred make it to year three. Far more Shusui are to be seen because mediocre Shusui look good enough as tosai that somebody will buy them. With any DIY breeding, without first training your eye to see how little ones will develop, it is a total crap shoot.... or you have to raise all 100,000+ hatchlings to see what you have. Very expensive.

    16. #16
      Hope J is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
      Hope:

      To obtain an Asagi of the type you want, breeding it yourself is the most laborious and expensive way to go about it. The easiest and cheapest is to go to a Japanese breeder who specializes in Asagi and spending whatever price they are asking. For the fun of trying, however, DIY breeding is great. Just don't get high expectations. ....There are literally millions of Asagi hatched every year by the most skilled Asagi breeders in the world, who know from experience what to look for when culling. The great bulk of these are non-descript dark fish culled as quickly as they develop pigment. Out of those millions, it is arguable whether more than a hundred make it to year three. Far more Shusui are to be seen because mediocre Shusui look good enough as tosai that somebody will buy them. With any DIY breeding, without first training your eye to see how little ones will develop, it is a total crap shoot.... or you have to raise all 100,000+ hatchlings to see what you have. Very expensive.
      Yes, thank you! Now that I know about Konjo Asagi, I can start there as opposed to trying to breed my own which eliminates some spawns for me WHOMP WHOMP! I've been reading a bunch of Wayne1 threads and posts and it looks like Murata is a good breeder of Asagi so I will start there. These will be next year purchases so I have time to set up more ponds and do more studying. I'm so excited to try a Spawn with Konjo Asagi and red leather skins. Also have a yellow yamabuki (I think) and that might be a fun Wild Card spawn to try. Soooooo many possibilities....

    17. #17
      Hope J is offline Senior Member
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      If I want to try for a patterned spawn, I could throw in a nice Ki Kisui or perhaps a leatherskin Showa.

    18. #18
      Mes's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hope J View Post
      Yes, thank you! Now that I know about Konjo Asagi, I can start there as opposed to trying to breed my own which eliminates some spawns for me WHOMP WHOMP! I've been reading a bunch of Wayne1 threads and posts and it looks like Murata is a good breeder of Asagi so I will start there. These will be next year purchases so I have time to set up more ponds and do more studying. I'm so excited to try a Spawn with Konjo Asagi and red leather skins. Also have a yellow yamabuki (I think) and that might be a fun Wild Card spawn to try. Soooooo many possibilities....
      Hope your wallet can take the extra strain. I breed tropicals and its extremely resource exhausting, both time and money, and that's accounting for only one to two hundred fry a spawn, not a few thousand.
      If you want to raise your spawns to a large enough size to see the potential, expect to build a massive pond.
      If you've got it though, raising fry can be very rewarding and fun, if you can stomach the culling as well.

    19. #19
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hope J View Post
      Yes, thank you! Now that I know about Konjo Asagi, I can start there as opposed to trying to breed my own which eliminates some spawns for me WHOMP WHOMP! I've been reading a bunch of Wayne1 threads and posts and it looks like Murata is a good breeder of Asagi so I will start there. These will be next year purchases so I have time to set up more ponds and do more studying. I'm so excited to try a Spawn with Konjo Asagi and red leather skins. Also have a yellow yamabuki (I think) and that might be a fun Wild Card spawn to try. Soooooo many possibilities....
      I've been to Murata a couple of times and never saw Asagi. To the best of my knowledge, he is a premier Kohaku breeder.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    20. #20
      Hope J is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      I've been to Murata a couple of times and never saw Asagi. To the best of my knowledge, he is a premier Kohaku breeder.
      It might have been one of the others then, I probably switched out breeders because I read so much at one time.

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