What do you all think about this product? do you have good result of using it?
What do you all think about this product? do you have good result of using it?
it works good ,for the fish polish the water ,i find it keeps the string algae in check
I've been using it for 15 years.
Need more Koi
I haven't had much success adding it to the water as it will send the rdf into hyperdrive trying to filter it out.
I have used it on food, coat the food with some water, sprinkle the clay over it and toss. Let it dry on the food then give to the koi. That doesn't seem to trigger the rigorous cleaning the previous does.
My RDF runs on a set timer but I don't see much of a drop in clean water level during the 17 min. cycle even after
adding clay. If I mess up the debris that settles in the stream I have to immediately shorten the cycle time
or else the RDF clean side will empty, so for me at least, I don't see a lot of an effect.
i currently am running 2 rdf on a 10k pond with a turn over rate of about 12,000 gph. i have only used koi clay maybe 5 times ( 2 heaping table spoons per 1000 gallons so just over 1.25 cups) and can say that in about 4 hours my water is completely clean and no clay left in the water. did it help i really dont know because i really never have had any clarity issues once i started using the rdf
kwick
Three may keep a secret, if two of them are dead. - Benjamin Franklin.
you cant fix stupid no matter how hard you try.
It would seem using a RDF and intentionally putting dirt into a pond system are counter intuitive. A $5,000 dirt remover for the $0.25 of clay?
The Koi like the Clay. Totally sterile water without minerals IMHO is not the way to go. When I put the clay in the water clouds up some, but 4 hours later its back to near gin clear. It does help knock down some algae's and replaces some minerals in the water. It is not putting dirt in the water as there are no organics in the clay.
Need more Koi
IMO the clay simply makes any mechanical filtration catch more fines by closing/clogging whatever type of mechanical filtration you may have. Sieves, matala, etc. IMO that is the last thing you want to store anything like clay in the system be it organic or not. Some clays can act like flocculants as well, and this is proven not to be healthy for fish gills. However most clay does contain organic material. That small amount of any possible minerals in the clay in my opinion does little to nothing in giving the Koi any significant minerals. You would have to analyze the clay to see what minerals it did contain before you can say it is beneficial to Koi. You would be better off adding some off the liquid trace minerals sold for aquaculture. Using a quality feed would do even more as for mineral supplement but Koi can uptake minerals directly from the water as well. Personally I see nothing beneficial with adding Koi clay, and I see no science documenting this. Just another product that they try and sell you.
The benefits of keeping Koi in mud ponds is scientifically documented for sure. This includes their uptake of minerals from the soil/clay. However I simply can't imagine comparing this to a few tablespoons added to a liner Koi pond. If you want clearer water, improve your filtration, If you want added missing minerals, add trace minerals to the food or in liquid form as mentioned. Food is the better method by far. And no I do not manufacture Koi food and I am not endorsing any particular feed.
Last edited by No Buddy; 10-18-2019 at 11:07 PM.
That whole Japanese mud pond thing is overrated. Just an excuse for the Japanese to dot their vistas with overgrown puddles. Not.
Anybody that has put a fish into a mud pond and have it come out vastly improved knows differently. I've seen koi regain beautiful form from being in a mud pond.
We don't have anything near a mud pond environment in our recirculating systems. To diminish the viability of them and the effect they have on koi probably hasn't been to Japan, hasn't followed the koi hobby with a mind to anything beyond a backyard. Not everything in this hobby is a gimmick to sell something. There are actual advantages to using some of the things sold in the hobby.
Koi are bottom feeders and I've seen many koi voraciously munching into the mud hunting food. You're putting them in their natural or near natural environment. So they often ingest a goodly amount of mud as well as their targeted food.
Is clay in a recirculating system ideal? Nope, but it's better than thinking water delivered by a municipality provides everything a koi needs. Or that a food will deliver all they need.
Gloria, Momotaro often puts clay in their concrete ponds. They believe a slight turbidity is advantageous for increasing the appetite of koi and thus increases the growth rate. This is in addition to the other clay benefits. We could never achieve this with our recirculating systems and rdf's. However, they sometimes will put a bucket with clay in the bottom by the ponds. They add some water, stir it around and let the heavier clay settle out. They then pour the clearer water into the pond. Add more water and repeat.
I have an RDF and use clay occasionally, but never as a pond additive. I keep a food container with what food I have open at the time and put in a cup or so of clay and then seal and shake. What goes into the pond is what is coated on the food and I think most goes into the koi rather than the water stream. No impact on RDF times.
There may be advantages to incorporating some clay into the diets we give our koi. As with anything, moderation is key and clay is cheap. I don't see a lot of harm in adding some every now and then.
You don't agree, don't do it. iMO not everyone has to do the same thing.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5632318/
Oh believe me I see the benefits of mud ponds on a daily basis. Colors like red especially pop in the mud. Many colors pop in the mud other than sumi. Pull the fish from the mud and you can see them change within days. No doubt the mud ponds can do this, but I have tons of doubts that a few tablespoons of mud will and see no true scientific documentation to prove otherwise. As for the references you listed, well lets just say I take those with a grain of salt. Just like with Koi products, they take a little science and twist it into something it is not. Remember the whole coral calcium craze for people to take a supplements. Many many things out there just like it where there is a little science involved but the end result is insignificant and frowned upon by the mainstream science world.
Let's face it, clear water is sterile water for the most part and the worst thing for fish life. However like I said I can't see the small amount of clay giving any substantial benefits to Koi. I guess I just rely on science too much and need more proof. I have not ever gotten any consistent results in any recirc systems that I could attribute to adding tablespoons of clay to. But then again I have mud pond to do that. They have their negatives as well. We will never be able to have the best of both worlds...gin clear water and any possible benefits of the mud IMO.
The Japanese farmers do many old school type things like you mention. Some work and some do not. I could go for a bucket of clay stirred into a small recirc sytem, but the water would be cloudy. Then if it clears it means that the sediment from the cloud ends up in the filtration or on the bottom, and this IMO may not be healthy for a small recirc system.. At minimum it would bring as much bad as it does good.
Last edited by No Buddy; 10-19-2019 at 12:15 AM.
Thanks for the tease on your background. It means naught without a name to substantiate it. For all I know, you don't even have a pond. Fish freshly harvested usually look better after a few days because of stress of the harvest and their systems flush out loads of stuff. If they looked the best fresh from the mud, you can bet they would go to a show as soon as possible post harvest. That is not the case.
If you take the time to read the benefits of bentonite clay, it's more than making red/Beni pop.
I'm sorry that the National Center of Biotechnology doesn't meet your standards of scientific study. It is part of the United States National Library of Medicine.
You are confusing two different aspects of koi from the mud. IN the mud many colors pop, but skin luster diminishes. When harvested and put into clear water the skin luster improves greatly but many SHADES of colors change after a few days. So you are somewhat correct in that they do improve after a few days, but only in skin luster. Reds lean back to more orangey shades. Of course this color shade change is also affected by the water temps, and the background color of the tank they are going into, and even the lighting of the sytem if they go into closed building instead of greenhouses.
I'm not feeling particularly confused about the discussion.
Beni is stretched in mud ponds because the koi have grown substantially. This makes the Beni appear lighter. It isn't just the shade of color. You can see that in their Hoshi. i've not seen a "red" looking koi turn "orange" after a few days. Beni consolidates, Hoshi is less apparent.
Skin luster affects all colors, not just Shiroji, thus the appearance of all colors improves after a few days.
Of course lighting affects colors. We are talking about clay on this thread.
Clay imparts more than benefits in color and was the reason I included the links I did. As the thread was about using clay and you seem to be advocating NOT using clay in ponds, I tried to point out why it is advantageous.
Others have shared success using for it algae control.
If you can share the science behind your belief, that would be helpful.
Last edited by Marilyn; 10-19-2019 at 12:25 PM.