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    Thread: S legend sakai 1.8 mil most expensive koi died

    1. #41
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by batman View Post
      Sometimes these ultra high animal auction prices are just scams to bring intense attention to a business or an attempt to establish higher auction prices in the future. Not saying it is the case here but its happened in the livestock industry in the past.
      Some dealers drop huge amounts of money on koi because their business name is spread worldwide. Good for the breeder, yes, but also good for the dealer for getting their name out there. As far as I know, few of the super pricey auction koi went on to do that well.

      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

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    2. #42
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      Quote Originally Posted by No Buddy View Post
      Back to the original subject of this thread;
      You have to understand that once it is decided to prepare a given Koi Tosai or older, for the all Japan Koi show, that fish enters a whole other world of Koi cutivating. Feeds are changed, and even patterns are physically manipulated by some breeders, and many times this fish spend far more time in the mud as compared to the general population. You can't compare how those fish are cared for to the general population of Koi in Japan. It is a whole other animal and situation. Yes, this can lead to untimely deaths in some cases but I can assure you it has nothing to do with the crude protein percentage of the feed, and it is not the highest percentage of them that die untimely deaths.
      Really? You can assure us? That is funny coming from a screen name that no one knows. You are incorrect about all of this. The Koi die because they are force fed and grown too fast. They are fed very high protein diets with a lot of fat and carbohydrates. It is these high protein diets that kill them. I have asked breeders about this and they all agree.

      I have read everything you posted and understand about the types of protein and the amino acids and it is beyond me why anyone, when talking about food, would include all that. Ask breeders about what they feed and when they feed. They will talk in terms of protein percentages and not the percentage of digestibility that protein has based on whether or not it is plant or animal based. Yes, breeders will vary their food recipes but it tends to only be the high profile one where the rest just use a feed that comes in a bag off of a shelf. In the Koi world we talk about ideal protein levels in foods like it or not.

      I had a conversation about food with Yoshimichi Sakai and he felt, for SFF, that the food should have both plant and animal protein with a slight edge to plant protein. Yes, he felt that their Koi food should have more plant protein than animal protein. He spoke nothing of amino acids nor does anyone else for that matter. What is your point?

      I think the real problem here is you just don’t like me or what I stand for. That is fine. It does not bother me nor does it bother me whether you think I am right or wrong. I don’t need you approval nor does anyone else. You sound a lot like the talking points from the Kenzen food wars. Are you Matt?
      Last edited by Russell Peters; 10-15-2019 at 11:09 AM.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    3. #43
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      Quote Originally Posted by batman View Post
      Sometimes these ultra high animal auction prices are just scams to bring intense attention to a business or an attempt to establish higher auction prices in the future. Not saying it is the case here but its happened in the livestock industry in the past.
      It is the case. I was at the Dainichi auction that yielded the first $80,000.00 Tosai. The biding actually stopped at 50k then the dealer that had that priced raised the price on himself. Their target was 80k.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    4. #44
      mtsklar is offline Senior Member
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      For the record this is the only post I have on this thread.

      Regards,
      Matt Sklar

    5. #45
      No Buddy is offline Senior Member
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      That is fine. Just keep talking about the drama you started with condescending remarks you are famous for, and ignore the science that shows you do not understand proteins and their relationship with amino acids. You love to drop names here of the breeders you talk to, and you are famous for name dropping on here. I am just trying to get people to learn the true science and forget the popularity contests that exist here on a daily basis. People please just do your own research and learn the science. Who says what is irrelevant. These posts are to prompt you to do the research, but they seem to get out of hand quickly with drama caused by snod remarks...intentional rt unintentional

    6. #46
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      Quote Originally Posted by No Buddy View Post
      That is fine. Just keep talking about the drama you started with condescending remarks you are famous for, and ignore the science that shows you do not understand proteins and their relationship with amino acids. You love to drop names here of the breeders you talk to, and you are famous for name dropping on here. I am just trying to get people to learn the true science and forget the popularity contests that exist here on a daily basis. People please just do your own research and learn the science. Who says what is irrelevant. These posts are to prompt you to do the research, but they seem to get out of hand quickly with drama caused by snod remarks...intentional rt unintentional
      Interesting, this post is full of the very same comments you speak of.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    7. #47
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      . The fish died, sucks for that guy.

    8. #48
      Paultergeist is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      It died from eating too much high protein food
      How do you know this to be the case?

    9. #49
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      Quote Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
      How do you know this to be the case?
      From some of the names I am accused of dropping.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    10. #50
      No Buddy is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      Interesting, this post is full of the very same comments you speak of.
      OK let's forget we don't like each other and let's talk science. I have given my debate back to you and instead of debating the science you choose to belittle and push the science aside. For once let's talk science and see if we can all learn something for once. Anyone that wants to talk about the science please add your thoughts.

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    11. #51
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      From some of the names I am accused of dropping.
      This seems highly speculative to me. I would think that -- given the expense of such a fish -- an autopsy by a qualified ichthyologist would be -- and really SHOULD BE -- the determining factor.

    12. #52
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      Quote Originally Posted by No Buddy View Post
      OK let's forget we don't like each other and let's talk science. I have given my debate back to you and instead of debating the science you choose to belittle and push the science aside. For once let's talk science and see if we can all learn something for once. Anyone that wants to talk about the science please add your thoughts.
      What I don't understand is your refusal to address the differing goals with food.

      Does the science you're espousing address the needs of Nishikigoi? I've yet to see you acknowledge that there is a fundamental difference in carp et all and Nishikigoi.
      We don't have fish in our ponds to produce food for us, we have them as works of art. We buy them for their patterns, conformation, lustrous skin and colors. Most of us would like them to maintain and perhaps enhance that beauty. Those are radically different objectives than someone simply raising fish for food.

      Anyone that shows any type of animal (dog, cat, horse) knows that you gear the food not only to digestion but what the food imparts to the animal.
      Certain things will enhance muscle, coat and such.

      Why is it so hard to believe that certain foods might actually enhance or maintain a good quality fish while others may have the fish grow well but will diminish the beauty?

      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    13. #53
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      I had a conversation about food with Yoshimichi Sakai and he felt, for SFF, that the food should have both plant and animal protein with a slight edge to plant protein. Yes, he felt that their Koi food should have more plant protein than animal protein. He spoke nothing of amino acids nor does anyone else for that matter. What is your point?
      While I agree that protein percentage does matter, and I have nothing against you (I honor your experience and guidance), I would like you to consider this: just because no one talks about something doesn't mean it shouldn't be talked about. Just a thought.

    14. #54
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      Quote Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
      This seems highly speculative to me. I would think that -- given the expense of such a fish -- an autopsy by a qualified ichthyologist would be -- and really SHOULD BE -- the determining factor.
      Point taken. The next time you hear or see a report from a qualified ichthyologist released from Japan regarding a well known koi I will read it with enthusiasm.
      Until that time, the best resource is those in Japan familiar with the situation.

      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    15. #55
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      Quote Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
      This seems highly speculative to me. I would think that -- given the expense of such a fish -- an autopsy by a qualified ichthyologist would be -- and really SHOULD BE -- the determining factor.
      I agree wholeheartedly

    16. #56
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      What I don't understand is your refusal to address the differing goals with food.

      Does the science you're espousing address the needs of Nishikigoi? I've yet to see you acknowledge that there is a fundamental difference in carp et all and Nishikigoi.
      We don't have fish in our ponds to produce food for us, we have them as works of art. We buy them for their patterns, conformation, lustrous skin and colors. Most of us would like them to maintain and perhaps enhance that beauty. Those are radically different objectives than someone simply raising fish for food.

      Anyone that shows any type of animal (dog, cat, horse) knows that you gear the food not only to digestion but what the food imparts to the animal.
      Certain things will enhance muscle, coat and such.

      Why is it so hard to believe that certain foods might actually enhance or maintain a good quality fish while others may have the fish grow well but will diminish the beauty?
      See my post #7 and #12. The goal of every breeder is to achieve the best of all worlds and this is why breeders spend lifetime reformulating ingredients and such. Yes there is a difference depending on the goals for sure as to how a feed is formulated and I have addressed this is previous posts
      Last edited by No Buddy; 10-15-2019 at 12:56 PM.

    17. #57
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      Quote Originally Posted by No Buddy View Post
      OK let's forget we don't like each other and let's talk science. I have given my debate back to you and instead of debating the science you choose to belittle and push the science aside. For once let's talk science and see if we can all learn something for once. Anyone that wants to talk about the science please add your thoughts.
      Please, take a look at all the Koi foods on the market and look at the protein source they use and talk science. As I pointed out, I get the science but no one uses it or talks about it. Fish meal, soybean meal, feather meal etc, it is all there to talk about but it doesn't change anything. I fully support different food brands, I use one with soybean meal and feather meal and love it(36% protein), and my customers use different food brands with a high level of success. The ones I don't support are the ones that I have learned from personally, what I have learned from breeders, and what my customers have shared. I have learned that feeding high protein is not good but there are a number of brands, with appropriate protein levels for the season, that do well for Koi health and beauty. I think the feeding chart I posted, which is information put together from Maruyama, and published by Ray Jordan sums up nicely what works for show Koi. Do all the food on the market work well for every one? No, but people don't use the science to buy food? How could they? They try a food and use what they think works well for them. I don't have a problem with that. Knowing the science does not change the results. I don't think we will ever see eye to eye on this.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    18. #58
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      Quote Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
      This seems highly speculative to me. I would think that -- given the expense of such a fish -- an autopsy by a qualified ichthyologist would be -- and really SHOULD BE -- the determining factor.
      Yup, and I would expect no less from you to suggest this.
      Last edited by Russell Peters; 10-15-2019 at 01:04 PM.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    19. #59
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      Quote Originally Posted by Mes View Post
      While I agree that protein percentage does matter, and I have nothing against you (I honor your experience and guidance), I would like you to consider this: just because no one talks about something doesn't mean it shouldn't be talked about. Just a thought.
      I understand but, look at the food you use, are the ingredients listed in a way you could look them up and determine the science behind the formula? Breeders understand the ingredients and what they do for their fish so they request food be made, or make it themselves, with those ingredients. Maybe some of the manufacturers like Hikari do use the science behind it but I don't think breeders do.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    20. #60
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      To be able to even begin to discuss those kinds of details one has to have a basic understanding of the nutritional needs of whatever the critter may be. Koi, carp, or whatever. Folks here that think the crude protein content alone is any kind of good indicator of quality or proper feed is an incomplete statement. I don't know how to explain it any better; The crude protein content is achieved by simply the measurement of proteins. The part many folks do not seem to get is that the source of the proteins and what amino acids were incorporated to achieve this given percentage is what matters. Once again I will say it is the balanced diet that is important for basic nutrition and this depends on the number of essential amino acids contained in the ingredients to achieve a given crude protein percentage.You still have to meet the basic nutritional needs of the fish before you can begin to try and manipulate things like colors and skin luster and such. The main point everyone seems to be missing is the basic understanding of what crude protein actually is and its role in nutrition. We cannot move forward until this is understood.
      Last edited by No Buddy; 10-15-2019 at 01:07 PM.

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