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    Thread: S legend sakai 1.8 mil most expensive koi died

    1. #1
      Nguyen365's Avatar
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      S legend sakai 1.8 mil most expensive koi died

      I saw a few videos but didn't know it was true

      We still dont know how s legend died but man 1.8mil ouch

      https://youtu.be/8sBhQuLRzys

    2. #2
      gander's Avatar
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      shame it was a beautiful fish they did not say why it died though
      "most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song
      still in them."
      I wish I could sing

      OK.TN.




    3. #3
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      It died from eating too much high protein food
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    4. #4
      SimonW is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      It died from eating too much high protein food
      I have never understood why it is so important with high protein food. Koi must also have other nutrients.

      I understand that the breeders want the fish to grow fast and big to be able to show that their fish have the potential to be huge, but too much of one kind of nutrients cannot be good for their health.

    5. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by SimonW View Post
      I have never understood why it is so important with high protein food. Koi must also have other nutrients.

      I understand that the breeders want the fish to grow fast and big to be able to show that their fish have the potential to be huge, but too much of one kind of nutrients cannot be good for their health.
      Koi are sacrificed to win shows as that is what generates sales. Bigger, better, faster is most important.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    6. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      Koi are sacrificed to win shows as that is what generates sales. Bigger, better, faster is most important.
      That makes me wonder:

      What is the average life expectancy of the show-quality koi?

      My koi is of low-quality, I feed them with cheaper koi food like Hikari Staple, and I have kept them in pea soup green water. Last winter I even caused death of most of my koi by leaving them in the outdoor pond (therefore I am going to keep them indoors this winter), but I still hope that those that survived will have a long life, hopefully longer than the rest of mine (I am 51), definitively longer than my neighbourīs dogs and cats!
      Last edited by SimonW; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:04 PM.

    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      It died from eating too much high protein food

      Ridiculous..... Firstly do you know that the protein content of a carps natural foods like worms, crayfish snails and invertebrate are well above 50% protein levels. Many worms run 60%-70% protein. Even certain vegetations that carp eat can be above 40%. As for percentages in Koi foods you have to understand that the percent protein itself, meaning the number, is almost irrelevant. The source of the protein is what really matters. Protein can be plant or animal based and they are all quite different in their nutritional values. Basically put the protein percentage of a given feed in meaningless. You have to know the specific source of the proteins to be able to deduce anything from it.

      Granted a carp in the wild has different requirements as compared to Koi in a recirc system, but you will never kill a koi or cause an untimely death due to high proteins based on percentages


      It also a myth that you should feed lower protein foods in cooler water. Firstly when it is too cold to eat the fish will stop eating themselves. Secondly no healthy fish will get any kind of infection due to the slower digestion of higher proteins in cooler water.This myth was started by the koi food industry to sell you another food is all.
      Last edited by No Buddy; 4 Weeks Ago at 09:40 PM.

    8. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by No Buddy View Post
      Ridiculous..... Firstly do you know that the protein content of a carps natural foods like worms, crayfish snails and invertebrate are well above 50% protein levels. Many worms run 60%-70% protein. Even certain vegetations that carp eat can be above 40%. As for percentages in Koi foods you have to understand that the percent protein itself, meaning the number, is almost irrelevant. The source of the protein is what really matters. Protein can be plant or animal based and they are all quite different in their nutritional values. Basically put the protein percentage of a given feed in meaningless. You have to know the specific source of the proteins to be able to deduce anything from it.

      Granted a carp in the wild has different requirements as compared to Koi in a recirc system, but you will never kill a koi or cause an untimely death due to high proteins based on percentages


      It also a myth that you should feed lower protein foods in cooler water. Firstly when it is too cold to eat the fish will stop eating themselves. Secondly no healthy fish will get any kind of infection due to the slower digestion of higher proteins in cooler water.This myth was started by the koi food industry to sell you another food is all.
      Explain the fact that a high percentage of grand champion koi die soon after the show.

    9. #9
      SuperPro is offline Junior Member
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      But in the wild are they fed 10 plus times a day on an auto feeder vs having to search and find these high protein foods you speak of ��*♂️

    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by abuchi123 View Post
      Explain the fact that a high percentage of grand champion koi die soon after the show.
      Not true. Some yes but NOT the highest percentage

    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by SuperPro View Post
      But in the wild are they fed 10 plus times a day on an auto feeder vs having to search and find these high protein foods you speak of ��*♂️
      It is not how many times a day they are fed but the total amount in a day. Yes I agree that little more often is better but it still comes down to a tatol amount AND the actual ingredients you may be feeding

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      in the Koi hobby world WAY TOO MUCH emphasis is on protein percentages. Like I said the percentage of protein is meaningless. What the protein sources are derived from are what is important. A balanced diet that meets the needs of Koi is what is most important. This balance needs to include vitamins and minerals, and very specific amino acids. You will not get this info from an ingredients label of ANY Koi food. That is unless you are a nutritional expert and can break down every ingredient into its basic chemical and nutritional form. ANYONE that is not a nutritional expert on the needs of carp/Koi pretending they can tell one good food from another based on the ingredient list is fooling themselves. You could spend a lifetime researching just this one aspect of Koi keeping, and even then it would be a guess and based on your individual results. This is why many breeders have their own feed formulas, and these formulas change based on years of observation and trial and error.

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      Only reason I raise the question is I’ve fished my entire life. I have a family friend who has a stocked pond with bluegill and they have an auto feeder with high protein fish food and in my 35 plus years of fishing I’ve never caught a lake raised bluegill anywhere near the size I’ve pulled out of said pond. And it’s not just one, over 70% of the bluegill we catch are what I would call obese. Just my observation

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      Many if not most of the Japanese breeders are very guilty of overuse of antibiotics. Without knowing any details of the fish's death, my bet would be a weakened immune system based on this overuse . However, just a guess as we do not know the details of this fishes life and care. Too high a protein feed is a very unlikely reason.

    15. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by SuperPro View Post
      Only reason I raise the question is Iíve fished my entire life. I have a family friend who has a stocked pond with bluegill and they have an auto feeder with high protein fish food and in my 35 plus years of fishing Iíve never caught a lake raised bluegill anywhere near the size Iíve pulled out of said pond. And itís not just one, over 70% of the bluegill we catch are what I would call obese. Just my observation
      This is because they are fed more in general than a wild fish gets on their own. Doesn't mean it has anything to do with protein percentage. As I said the feed has to be a balanced diet to meet the nutritional needs of the given species and the goals of the person feeding them. If the fish are obese they are not being fed the proper feed for their needs.

      I personally have tagged bluegill up to two lbs and 15 years old. The average lifespan of a wild bluegill is 5-8 years. Point being the right recipe and feed rate can lead to healthy long lived fish. On the other side of that coin most pond feed sold for farm ponds are very poor quality feeds and this can for sure lead to untimely death and obesity. My two pounders are not obese, and neither are most show Koi in Japan. There are so many variables that can ;lead to untimely death. The handling of these show fish alone could be a major variable. Not the mishandling, just the handling required that is. Genetics and breeding mutation to mutation, and inbreeding is a more likely major variable to untimely death and disease in these fish.
      Last edited by No Buddy; 4 Weeks Ago at 10:58 PM.

    16. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by No Buddy View Post
      Ridiculous..... Firstly do you know that the protein content of a carps natural foods like worms, crayfish snails and invertebrate are well above 50% protein levels. Many worms run 60%-70% protein. Even certain vegetations that carp eat can be above 40%. As for percentages in Koi foods you have to understand that the percent protein itself, meaning the number, is almost irrelevant. The source of the protein is what really matters. Protein can be plant or animal based and they are all quite different in their nutritional values. Basically put the protein percentage of a given feed in meaningless. You have to know the specific source of the proteins to be able to deduce anything from it.

      Granted a carp in the wild has different requirements as compared to Koi in a recirc system, but you will never kill a koi or cause an untimely death due to high proteins based on percentages


      It also a myth that you should feed lower protein foods in cooler water. Firstly when it is too cold to eat the fish will stop eating themselves. Secondly no healthy fish will get any kind of infection due to the slower digestion of higher proteins in cooler water.This myth was started by the koi food industry to sell you another food is all.
      Absolutes in anything are unlikely.
      I know of koi that were fed lots of shrimp late into the year and it created many issues and a loss of at least one koi. High protein food at a poor time of year for it.

      You said that breeders often formulate their own foods and learn via trial and error. I don't disagree but a commonality is i don't see breeders advocating high protein diets for koi. They learned from trial and error that it was not a good idea.
      Thinking that the Japanese don't have a good understanding of what works in the industry they essentially created and currently dominate seems ill-advised. If breeders think that high protein diets are not a good idea, I have little reason to question the veracity of this belief. I concur, if something worked better they likely would have implemented it by now.

      I also agree that a different diet is not an absolute necessity. Few people understand how and when to feed their koi for health, beauty and longevity.

      I have seen no evidence that the manufacturers of koi food created the lower protein winter foods as a marketing gimmick.
      Having spoken with a number of koi food manufacturers, my understanding is that people were prone to overfeeding their koi going into cooler months and then blaming the food for making their koi ill. It seemed prudent to introduce foods that would not be as detrimental if the food was a lower protein compared to the summer feed. Many koi foods their feeding instructions (based on water temperature) on the bags of food. Again, if they just wanted you to use the food for higher sales, they would say to feed it year round.

      Manda Fu, while not just being a treat and great hand feeding tool, was also put forth as a winter safe food.

      The reason koi don't handle higher food rates, I suspect, is that their immune systems decline in cooler temps. Combine that with a high protein food and it could be disastrous for a hobbyist. Overall, koi are kept in a wide range of environments making absolute statements problematic.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    17. #17
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      The vast majority of GC Koi from the AJKS die because of being fed too much food with too much protein. Kentaro Sakai has confirmed this. I am not going to argue with you about what you posted because most of your information isnít true but I know you believe it. The ideal percentage, based on many studies is 38% protein. Breeders in Japan do feed lower protein foods in colder temps and higher protein food. There was a paper published by Ray Jordan of a feeding schedule given to him by Maruyama.

      All breeders in Japan use different levels of protein when they feed and it matters. The talking points you use about carp eating high protein in the wild do not fly at all. It sounds exactly like the Kenzen sales pitch. I have spoken with quite a few of the best breeders in Japan about feeding high protein food all year and they ALL said the same thing. It is bad for the Koi and it will cause many internal problems.
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      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      The vast majority of GC Koi from the AJKS die because of being fed too much food with too much protein. Kentaro Sakai has confirmed this. I am not going to argue with you about what you posted because most of your information isnít true but I know you believe it. The ideal percentage, based on many studies is 38% protein. Breeders in Japan do feed lower protein foods in colder temps and higher protein food. There was a paper published by Ray Jordan of a feeding schedule given to him by Maruyama.

      All breeders in Japan use different levels of protein when they feed and it matters. The talking points you use about carp eating high protein in the wild do not fly at all. It sounds exactly like the Kenzen sales pitch. I have spoken with quite a few of the best breeders in Japan about feeding high protein food all year and they ALL said the same thing. It is bad for the Koi and it will cause many internal problems.

      Ray Jordan huh? Wasn't aware he was a scientist in the field of nutrition. I do not consider this a published scientific paper. It is from a koi Hobbyist. You simply don't understand the nature of proteins and their complex nature. This is obvious by you saying the Japanese use a specific percentage. You need to research nutrition my friend you don't seem to get it. No I am not going to argue either. THERE IS NO IDEAL PERCENTAGE. The percentage is irrelevant and you do not seem to get that. It is a useless way to measure nutrition and such as far a a percentage of the feed total composition. You could have two feeds that are 38% and one could be far better than the other based on this variable alone. Once again I will tell you that it depends on the ingredients used to derive the proteins. The percentage is meaningless. Do the research before you make such bold statements. This is a very basic knowledge in the world of nutrition.


    20. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by No Buddy View Post
      Ray Jordan huh? Wasn't aware he was a scientist in the field of nutrition. I do not consider this a published scientific paper. It is from a koi Hobbyist. You simply don't understand the nature of proteins and their complex nature. This is obvious by you saying the Japanese use a specific percentage. You need to research nutrition my friend you don't seem to get it. No I am not going to argue either. THERE IS NO IDEAL PERCENTAGE. The percentage is irrelevant and you do not seem to get that. It is a useless way to measure nutrition and such as far a a percentage of the feed total composition. You could have two feeds that are 38% and one could be far better than the other based on this variable alone. Once again I will tell you that it depends on the ingredients used to derive the proteins. The percentage is meaningless. Do the research before you make such bold statements. This is a very basic knowledge in the world of nutrition.

      I can’t believe how uneducated you are about this whole subject. You literally know nothing do you?

      BTW, stop shouting all of your false info..,
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

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