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  • Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234
    Results 61 to 80 of 80

    Thread: S legend sakai 1.8 mil most expensive koi died

    1. #61
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      Quote Originally Posted by No Buddy View Post
      To be able to even begin to discuss those kinds of details one has to have a basic understanding of the nutritional needs of whatever the critter may be. Koi, carp, or whatever. Folks here that think the crude protein content alone is any kind of good indicator of quality or proper feed is an incomplete statement. I don't know how to explain it any better; The crude protein content is achieved by simply the measurement of proteins. The part many folks do not seem to get is that the source of the proteins and what amino acids were incorporated to achieve this given percentage is what matters. Once again I will say it is the balanced diet that is important for basic nutrition and this depends on the number of essential amino acids contained in the ingredients to achieve a given crude protein percentage.You still have to meet the basic nutritional needs of the fish before you can begin to try and manipulate things like colors and skin luster and such. The main point everyone seems to be missing is the basic understanding of what crude protein actually is and its role in nutrition. We cannot move forward until this is understood.
      I agree with every thing you have just said but I still will not relent on the fact that I believe high protein foods fed all year are not good for Koi. I have seen what it does, I have seen the bellies they create on Koi, I have seen the necropsy pictures showing fatty liver disease and tumors, and I have seen Koi grow too fast and get destroyed and/or die.

      It doesn't matter if your protein source is fish meal, soybean meal or something else everyone thinks isn't desirable if you have the right number of essential amino acids for that protein source.

      Are you trying to say that, if you use the science, you can create a high protein food, let's say 50%, that can be fed all year round, that isn't bad for Koi in one way or another? If so, it does NOT exists yet.
      Last edited by Russell Peters; 5 Days Ago at 01:18 PM.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    2. #62
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      I agree with every thing you have just said but I still will not relent on the fact that I believe high protein foods fed all year are not good for Koi. I have seen what it does, I have seen the bellies they create on Koi, I have seen the necropsy pictures showing fatty liver disease and tumors, and I have seen Koi grow too fast and get destroyed and/or die.

      Are you trying to say that, if you use the science, you can create a high protein food, let's say 50%, that can be fed all year round, that isn't bad for Koi in one way or another? If so, it does NOT exists yet.
      What I am saying is that is still up for debate in the world of Koi nutrition from a scientific standpoint. Aquaculture nutrition is just now getting to be well understood. Koi nutrition still has a long way to go because it is another world of nutrition based on many different goals other than just growth. The feed manufactures know the basic nutritional aspect and the breeders know what goals they want to add to that. It takes trial and error as well as science to attempt to achieve the best of all worlds in Koi nutrition. We are a long way from meeting that gaol.

      Fatty liver disease is not caused directly by high protein, but again the imbalanced nutrition and fatty amino acids as well as other variables like digestibility of given ingredients. You simply cannot say from a scientific standpoint that higher proteins cause this or that without knowing what amino acids are present in the protein source. Far to blanket a statement. There can be many other things that cause fatty liver and other nutritional deficiencies that make up a given diet. It is far more complex than just proteins.
      Last edited by No Buddy; 5 Days Ago at 01:49 PM.

    3. #63
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      Quote Originally Posted by No Buddy View Post
      What I am saying is that is still up for debate in the world of Koi nutrition from a scientific standpoint. Aquaculture nutrition is just now getting to be well understood. Koi nutrition still has a long way to go because it is another world of nutrition based on many different goals other than just growth. The feed manufactures know the basic nutritional aspect and the breeders know what goals they want to add to that. It takes trial and error as well as science to attempt to achieve the best of all worlds in Koi nutrition. We are a long way from meeting that gaol.

      Fatty liver disease is not caused directly by high protein, but again the imbalanced nutrition and fatty amino acids as well as other variables like digestibility of given ingredients.
      There is no science when it comes to Koi food, there are no studies, from what I understand it is what breeders see and adjust for. When the high protein food wars started in 2011, because some high protein foods were introduced as the latest, greatest food, all I could do was talk to breeders in Japan and ask them. I know this isn’t science but I wanted to know what they thought. All said the same thing, when they tried feeding high protein foods to get larger Koi more quickly, they experienced a higher rate of sick fish and fish with internal problems. When they switched back the problems went away. It seems the only difference we’re the levels of protein. Again, are you saying that the science is there to produce a high protein food(50%) that will have no ill affect on Koi?
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    4. #64
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      May I say some words as a biologist, without specific knowledge on koi or koi food.

      Of course a balanced diet is always best for any animal. I agree that in the nature koi eat mostly animal food, but I am sure that they also eat a substantial amount of plants or algae, judging from their behavior in our ponds. Therefore sole animal proteins cannot be good for them.

      I think that we can drop the idea of essential or non-essential amino acids for koi, as we donīt know (or I am not aware of). Same thing about vitamins. Essential vitamins for one animal are not necessarily essential for other animals, like Vc is essential for us human but not essential for tigers: They can make their own Vc.

    5. #65
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      I never understood the passion for food fight on this board. Unless you are a vendor with financial interest, koi food is a pretty boring subject. The "best" food will not do much to improve a low quality koi. A high quality koi will do fine eating almost any major brand. It is when and how much to feed that matters more than what's printed on the bag.

    6. #66
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      Though the article provides a great foundation for this discussion, I feel that is as far as it should be considered in this discussion. We're all in agreement on the existence of amino acids and their importance - the way they're introduced and utilized.

      As far as the "ten essential" amino acids and the crude protein percentages go, it's not as if this information on amino acid presence in various preferred protein sources for koi food is unknown. The article itself identifies the amino acids present in plant protein like soy meal (lysine & tryptophan) and other sources, and since the higher quality koi foods often guarantee (guaranteed analysis) a mix of fish meal, cereal grains and bean meals, it wouldn't be a far cry to say that most foods do provide a complete set of the essential amino acids. Also stated in the article is that though the specific dietary requirements for certain species may be unknown, simply increasing the amount/over-supplementing of food deficient in a particular amino acid (limiting amino acid) has been seen to be effective at satisfying those needs.

      With that being said, it shouldn't be surprising that the science may actually back up what protein sources generations of breeders have chosen to incorporate into their koi foods through trial and error. Fish grew faster adding more soy than wheat? They'd keep the soy, but we now know that cereal grains are deficient in lysine. Going back to the article, plant-based proteins from varying sources can be combined to complete the set of essential amino acids despite the presence of nutritional inhibitors, but faster growth rates were seen by incorporating fish meal into diets.

      I'm sure we've all seen situations where more than the required amount of protein (for a given activity level) was ingested, and that person then becomes fat right? Excessive amounts of protein, when not used by the body, can be catabolized and can become alpha-keto acids to then become EITHER energy or fat. (Forgive the comparison of humans to fish) Now, we don't feed koi high protein food to build muscle in our ponds - that's more likely to occur in mud ponds due to a more natural & physically demanding foraging method of digging down into the mud. This is also why we notice thicker tail tubes often times on fish coming out of the mud.

      Now, if a food with higher percentages of highly-digestible, high-quality crude protein (more accessible amino acids) was fed in repeated large quantities to koi in a controlled environment (5000 gallon pond with the same constant flow) that aren't expending large amounts of energy, then that protein can now be stored as fat (essentially, physically stored energy). Rapid ingestion of protein exceeding the rate of utilization & growth would undoubtedly result in more byproducts of protein metabolism, i.e. energy or fat, and it wouldn't be hard to imagine any negative outcomes from such an issue.

    7. #67
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      When I first started the hobby, I got too creative and bought freeze dried mealworms as treat. Fish went crazy on this stuff so I fed them more. After a while, my female koi started to look eggy and some were deformed. The bulge was hard to touch. Some turned out to be ovarian tumor.

      Don't repeat my mistake. Freeze dried mealworms nutritional breakdown is about 50% protein and 25% fat.

    8. #68
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      I understand but, look at the food you use, are the ingredients listed in a way you could look them up and determine the science behind the formula? Breeders understand the ingredients and what they do for their fish so they request food be made, or make it themselves, with those ingredients. Maybe some of the manufacturers like Hikari do use the science behind it but I don't think breeders do.
      Yeah, I'm sure it's probably too expensive for the average breeder to afford the scientific research needed to optimize their food to the max, so considering the crude protein and using established ingredients makes the most sense.

    9. #69
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      Quote Originally Posted by SimonW View Post
      May I say some words as a biologist, without specific knowledge on koi or koi food.

      Of course a balanced diet is always best for any animal. I agree that in the nature koi eat mostly animal food, but I am sure that they also eat a substantial amount of plants or algae, judging from their behavior in our ponds. Therefore sole animal proteins cannot be good for them.

      I think that we can drop the idea of essential or non-essential amino acids for koi, as we donīt know (or I am not aware of). Same thing about vitamins. Essential vitamins for one animal are not necessarily essential for other animals, like Vc is essential for us human but not essential for tigers: They can make their own Vc.
      Actually Koi are still a cyprinid/carp and there have been plenty of studies on their basic nutritional needs including essential amino acids, vitamins and minerals. This is a given and the basis of all koi/carp feeds. In other words you need these specific things for the Koi have a complete and balanced diet. We know this for sure to date. As for trying to manipulate colors and patterns well that is more along the lines of genetics rather than nutrition, but the basic nutritional needs have to be met before you can begin to manipulate, improve or change anything else in your desired end goal.
      Koi are omnivore in nature as they eat both plant and animals, but they are a little different than your average omnivore due to their digestive systems and associated organs

    10. #70
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      Actually carp are one of the oldest species of food fish around. Along with salmonids there have been quite a few studies done on their nutritional requirements as far as propagation in an aquaculture setting. Understand clearly that Koi are a carp so there is plenty of science that will transfer directly for carp to Koi. Understand as well that studies on wild carp will differ from those of propagated carp .

      May I suggest that you try google scholar as opposed to the standard Google search as you will find far more science there.

    11. #71
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      Point taken. The next time you hear or see a report from a qualified ichthyologist released from Japan regarding a well known koi I will read it with enthusiasm.
      I would think -- given the expense of this fish -- that it might be worthwhile to the owner to attempt to determine cause of death. That could be useful information.
      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      Until that time, the best resource is those in Japan familiar with the situation.
      It is just not clear to me, at all, that being -- as you say -- familiar with the situation is the same as establishing causality.

    12. #72
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      Quote Originally Posted by Euryth View Post
      Though the article provides a great foundation for this discussion, I feel that is as far as it should be considered in this discussion. We're all in agreement on the existence of amino acids and their importance - the way they're introduced and utilized.

      As far as the "ten essential" amino acids and the crude protein percentages go, it's not as if this information on amino acid presence in various preferred protein sources for koi food is unknown. The article itself identifies the amino acids present in plant protein like soy meal (lysine & tryptophan) and other sources, and since the higher quality koi foods often guarantee (guaranteed analysis) a mix of fish meal, cereal grains and bean meals, it wouldn't be a far cry to say that most foods do provide a complete set of the essential amino acids. Also stated in the article is that though the specific dietary requirements for certain species may be unknown, simply increasing the amount/over-supplementing of food deficient in a particular amino acid (limiting amino acid) has been seen to be effective at satisfying those needs.

      With that being said, it shouldn't be surprising that the science may actually back up what protein sources generations of breeders have chosen to incorporate into their koi foods through trial and error. Fish grew faster adding more soy than wheat? They'd keep the soy, but we now know that cereal grains are deficient in lysine. Going back to the article, plant-based proteins from varying sources can be combined to complete the set of essential amino acids despite the presence of nutritional inhibitors, but faster growth rates were seen by incorporating fish meal into diets.

      I'm sure we've all seen situations where more than the required amount of protein (for a given activity level) was ingested, and that person then becomes fat right? Excessive amounts of protein, when not used by the body, can be catabolized and can become alpha-keto acids to then become EITHER energy or fat. (Forgive the comparison of humans to fish) Now, we don't feed koi high protein food to build muscle in our ponds - that's more likely to occur in mud ponds due to a more natural & physically demanding foraging method of digging down into the mud. This is also why we notice thicker tail tubes often times on fish coming out of the mud.

      Now, if a food with higher percentages of highly-digestible, high-quality crude protein (more accessible amino acids) was fed in repeated large quantities to koi in a controlled environment (5000 gallon pond with the same constant flow) that aren't expending large amounts of energy, then that protein can now be stored as fat (essentially, physically stored energy). Rapid ingestion of protein exceeding the rate of utilization & growth would undoubtedly result in more byproducts of protein metabolism, i.e. energy or fat, and it wouldn't be hard to imagine any negative outcomes from such an issue.
      Well written and in general I agree with most of what you have said. My only point in all of this was to make people understand that two different foods with the same crude protein listing can be very very different from each other. One could be complete garbage and comprised of low quality proteins/ingredients and not be a balanced diet for Koi. You have to look at the ingredients to determine which one is the garbage one. Looking at the crude protein says nothing in these regards. It is generally accepted that if you have a good balanced diet with quality ingredients that include most of the essential amino acids, as well as other variables like ash, lipids fat etc that somewhere between 35% and 42% protein is acceptable. However this varies greatly from feed mill to feed mill. There are more low quality feeds out there than good ones by far. However also understand that this depends on the age of the fish as well. Fry are commonly fed 55% levels and completely different formulas as compared to Tosai. The same holds true from Sansai and up to maturity. Then there are the old timers whose dietary needs change considerably once again. So as you can imagine there are phases of the fishes life that dietary needs change as well.

    13. #73
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      Quote Originally Posted by No Buddy View Post
      Well written and in general I agree with most of what you have said. My only point in all of this was to make people understand that two different foods with the same crude protein listing can be very very different from each other. One could be complete garbage and comprised of low quality proteins/ingredients and not be a balanced diet for Koi. You have to look at the ingredients to determine which one is the garbage one. Looking at the crude protein says nothing in these regards. It is generally accepted that if you have a good balanced diet with quality ingredients that include most of the essential amino acids, as well as other variables like ash, lipids fat etc that somewhere between 35% and 42% protein is acceptable. However this varies greatly from feed mill to feed mill. There are more low quality feeds out there than good ones by far. However also understand that this depends on the age of the fish as well. Fry are commonly fed 55% levels and completely different formulas as compared to Tosai. The same holds true from Sansai and up to maturity. Then there are the old timers whose dietary needs change considerably once again. So as you can imagine there are phases of the fishes life that dietary needs change as well.
      Somewhat true, somewhat exaggerated and missing selected facts. Pet food is a multi-billion dollar industry and it's easy to see how the online forums of any pet, the food wars rage. Every forum has robot company warriors ready to jump in and justify product.
      The real Batman wears polyester! Don't be fooled by the plastic imposter.

    14. #74
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      Quote Originally Posted by batman View Post
      Somewhat true, somewhat exaggerated and missing selected facts. Pet food is a multi-billion dollar industry and it's easy to see how the online forums of any pet, the food wars rage. Every forum has robot company warriors ready to jump in and justify product.
      Hope you are not implying I am one of those. I am not trying to push any product whatsoever. I am just trying to educate the people that do not know some of these things .No products were really mentioned by anyone in this thread as for pushing them really, and I named none

    15. #75
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      The death of S Legend makes me consider following:

      1) The breeders donīt necessarily prioritize long life expectancy of their koi. People buy koi not because they will have a very long life, but their beauty. After all you cannot know how long the fish will live when you buy them.

      2) Therefore the koi are fed with food that will make them grow fast and have vibrant colors. You cannot rule out the possibility that this kind of food shortens their life.

      3) I always see that fellow koi-keepers have beautiful koi ponds with beautiful, crystal-clear water. But I have learnt that many crucial substances (for instance omega-3 fatty acids) in the fish we eat are ultimately from the algae (therefore farmed fish fed with factory-made food have lower nutrient value). I would be surprised if these substances donīt have very positive health effects for the fish. I doubt that the koi food will compensate them. Therefore when the koi are kept in ponds with zero algae year around their life expectancy can be even shorter.

      I am really interested in information about the average life length of koi, especially the precious show-quality koi that have been taken really "good" care of. If everyone of us koipheners say how old her/his koi are we may have a very nice database and be able to make interesting statistical data from it.
      Last edited by SimonW; 2 Days Ago at 04:38 PM.

    16. #76
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      That would be interesting. Why don't you start a new thread for it.

    17. #77
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      To build up a such database fellow koipheners must be able to directly write into a online table, and somehow the data can be sorted automatically. If we succeed we will have contributed to the koi-community greatly, and the breeders have something more to take in consideration.

      So I wonder if the webmaster of koiphen thinks that this idea is plausible and is willing to give us a dedicated place. I myself have a very busy life (full-time job and 3 young kids) so I cannot spend much time on it, furthermore I have poor computer skills. It would be nice if some koipheners knowledgeable in database/computer with plenty of free time can take on the job!

    18. #78
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      Quote Originally Posted by SimonW View Post
      To build up a such database fellow koipheners must be able to directly write into a online table, and somehow the data can be sorted automatically. If we succeed we will have contributed to the koi-community greatly, and the breeders have something more to take in consideration.

      So I wonder if the webmaster of koiphen thinks that this idea is plausible and is willing to give us a dedicated place. I myself have a very busy life (full-time job and 3 young kids) so I cannot spend much time on it, furthermore I have poor computer skills. It would be nice if some koipheners knowledgeable in database/computer with plenty of free time can take on the job!
      I'm a little confused as to what data you want collected and what it would tell you.
      I don't know just recording ages tells you much? How do you define what is precious show quality?
      What is "good" care and how could you tell if one was well cared for and one wasn't?
      I'm not sure you could ever quantify that.

      My water is clear but I have algae on the sides... I think 99% of ponds have some amount that the koi
      probably eat. I don't remember seeing any that has absolutely none. I'm willing to work on it but I'm
      not sure what you're envisioning.
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    19. #79
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I'm a little confused as to what data you want collected and what it would tell you.
      I don't know just recording ages tells you much? How do you define what is precious show quality?
      What is "good" care and how could you tell if one was well cared for and one wasn't?
      I'm not sure you could ever quantify that.

      My water is clear but I have algae on the sides... I think 99% of ponds have some amount that the koi
      probably eat. I don't remember seeing any that has absolutely none. I'm willing to work on it but I'm
      not sure what you're envisioning.
      I keep a little algae growing too because I read somewhere that it was good for them to have a little algae.

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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I'm a little confused as to what data you want collected and what it would tell you.
      I don't know just recording ages tells you much? How do you define what is precious show quality?
      What is "good" care and how could you tell if one was well cared for and one wasn't?
      I'm not sure you could ever quantify that.

      My water is clear but I have algae on the sides... I think 99% of ponds have some amount that the koi
      probably eat. I don't remember seeing any that has absolutely none. I'm willing to work on it but I'm
      not sure what you're envisioning.
      Thank you for your candid reply!

      I admit there are many subjective matters here, and I have not given it a good consideration. For instance, what I mean with show-quality koi is simply better koi from famous breeders that their owners think they are worth to be taken good care of.

      One more problem is that there are so many variables that things can easily get unmanageable.

      But maybe we can start with some more common things about those of this kind of better koi that have died:

      - The acceptable/expected life length of koiphenersī favorite koi
      - Number of koi over 20 years, 15 years, 10 years, 5 years and under 5 years (of course these koi are alive)
      - Age of death (Death caused by infectious diseases and bad water quality must be excluded, but can be listed separately)
      - Breeders
      - Food: Content of proteins, how often
      - Water temperature: Often above 25 C, mostly around 25 C, mostly between 15-25 C, mostly under 15 C
      - Hardness of water - Soft, medium hard, hard
      - Presence of green water algae: Crystal clear, somewhat greenish, very green
      - If very clear water: whether the koi graze blanket algae or string algae (I assume that fish eat algae mostly when they swallow the food they also swallow green water algae)
      - More?

      I think that if we keep update it for some years we may start to see a pattern.

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