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    Thread: IDing questions

    1. #1
      Melinda1102 is offline Senior Member
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      IDing questions

      I have been looking at koi a good bit recently and have gotten really confused and need some help. I know the basics the showa, sanke, bekko, utsuri, matsuba, ochiba, soragoi, asagi, chagoi, kohaku and basically anything solid i could put shiro and aka or ki in front of. But then I start looking outside those breeds and see them all listed on sites and get really confused one koi that looks like it has a twin listed on different site and they have different names. The metallics really have me thrown off. Can anyone lead me to a site that has the breeds listed with correct pictures? Or can anyone be a mentor and help explain the differences in the breeds?
      Learn by experience.................Preferably other peoples

    2. #2
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      To the best of my knowledge, there isn't one or rather, there isn't one that is comprehensive and accurate.
      The problem, especially in the non-Gosanke varieties, is there is a huge discrepancy in quality and a variety in patterns. People love selling something as unique or one of a kind when often, it is just a poor representation of an established variety and thus doesn't look the same. I was even told by a dealer back around 2008, they would sometimes ID a koi a different variety as it would sell faster.

      Many koi sold in the US are listed as tategoi, high quality and so forth when they aren't. Koi that are good examples of what they are typically aren't that difficult to ID.
      It gets tougher with lower quality koi.

      My suggestion is to look at loads of good quality koi. Follow the upcoming AJKS (late January, as I recall) and ID as many as you can.
      The more you familiarize yourself with examples of higher quality koi, the easier it gets to assess those of lesser quality. It's hard to explain but the eye seems to begin to understand and helps the brain along. Koi are art, so it helps to make the brain take a back seat until the heart and eyes get a chance at it, then you can quantify it.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    3. #3
      Rob Forbis is offline Senior Member
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      American Koi Judge Association has some good info. http://akjaonline.org/

    4. #4
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    5. #5
      Melinda1102 is offline Senior Member
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      Most of the ones listed on there I can Id no issue sometimes a kikusui I will call a doitsu kohaku and the yamato I get mixed up. Its mainly other people putting out names that has me looking things up to try and figure out what it is. The other day i seen where someone was saying they had a red aka chagoi. Really thought all chagoi were a brown shade. then seeing breed like Karashi come up in a feed somewhere still not sure about that one. And yoshikigoi?? No idea what that one is and can not really find info on it. The i thik people just throw kin ki and gin in front of about everything just to make them seem more complicated.
      Learn by experience.................Preferably other peoples

    6. #6
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Melinda1102 View Post
      Most of the ones listed on there I can Id no issue sometimes a kikusui I will call a doitsu kohaku and the yamato I get mixed up. Its mainly other people putting out names that has me looking things up to try and figure out what it is. The other day i seen where someone was saying they had a red aka chagoi. Really thought all chagoi were a brown shade. then seeing breed like Karashi come up in a feed somewhere still not sure about that one. And yoshikigoi?? No idea what that one is and can not really find info on it. The i thik people just throw kin ki and gin in front of about everything just to make them seem more complicated.
      Found another link for you:

      http://zna.jp/eng/nishikigoi/variety/index.html

      ZNA is a very good resource. Click on the variety name for more info.
      Regarding sellers using ki kin gin, all of those have specific meanings. Familiarize yourself with those and the mystique strips away and lets you visually assess if the koi actually has those characteristics. Don't get sold on hype, IOW. Ki means yellow, kin means gold metallic, gin means silver metallic.

      http://zna.jp/eng/nishikigoi/terminology/index.html

      Here's a link for Japanese phrases, names and general koi info. I can't advocate its accuracy totally but a cursory check seemed pretty good:

      https://www.koi-pond-guide.com/nishikigoi-terms.html

      Here's a pic of a some large Kin Matsuba:

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      Here's a pic of a Ki Utsuri pulled from KP:

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      Kin Ki Utsuri pulled from the internet, see the metallic?:

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      Last edited by Marilyn; 1 Week Ago at 11:44 PM.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    7. #7
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      A Kikusui will have a metallic base, internet pic from Laguna Koi:

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      Doitsu Kohaku also from Laguna Koi internet find, no metallic:

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      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    8. #8
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      Yamato Nishikigoi are scaled metallic Sanke. Doitsu versions are called Heisei Nishikigoi.

      Here's another link for you. The problem with the internet is you have to cherry pick the information. My suggestion is to take it as guidelines to further your education but true understanding comes when you can further your knowledge in person with a good koi source. Those can be hard to find sometimes too, lol.

      Yamato on the internet:
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      Heisei from Koiphen:
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      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    9. #9
      Melinda1102 is offline Senior Member
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      I know the meanings of all the kin gin ki hi aka shiro all those I think sometimes dealers and others add all the names on they can to make the name seem more confusing. The kikusui i get mixed up in pics but not always. Its the ones I have never heard of like the karashi to me the pics I have seen its looks like a kigoi or a yellow ogon. Then you see some that make it look like a orenji or even a shiro muji that got stressed because they almost look pink or peach colored. Just trying to figure out the differences.
      Learn by experience.................Preferably other peoples

    10. #10
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      I guess I'm not understanding the confusion. A lot of the types you mention either have Hikari (metallic sheen) or they do not and that is a critical part of assessing what type they are. Not all that sell koi are particularly cognizant of the proper names. I see mislabeled koi a lot. I've seen koi sold as Showa that are Sanke. I guess the seller seems to think loads of Sumi makes it a Showa instead of a poor Sanke. I've seen Sanke sold as Showa because the Sumi is not where the seller thinks it should be. It's just a Sanke with Sumi in a less desirable location.

      Lesser examples will not overtly exhibit what they should look like. It's what makes them lesser examples.

      Chagoi can be brown (rootbeer colored ones were the rage for a while), greenish and reddish (I had a lovely almost apricot one).
      Any of the single color koi will have varying shades of that color. Chagoi, Soragoi, Karashi and Ogons in general will exhibit a range of color within their type.
      For some types, the level of color affects their value and factors into it being a good or poor example of the variety.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    11. #11
      Melinda1102 is offline Senior Member
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      [QUOTE=Marilyn;2731203]I guess I'm not understanding the confusion. A lot of the types you mention either have Hikari (metallic sheen) or they do not and that is a critical part of assessing what type they are. Not all that sell koi are particularly cognizant of the proper names. I see mislabeled koi a lot. I've seen koi sold as Showa that are Sanke. I guess the seller seems to think loads of Sumi makes it a Showa instead of a poor Sanke. I've seen Sanke sold as Showa because the Sumi is not where the seller thinks it should be. It's just a Sanke with Sumi in a less desirable location.



      My confusion I think is just from mislabeling. Mainly on facebook groups but then I see some lower end koi dealers give names that are like 5 names all combined maybe just to make the fish seem better. I just seen someone post about a fish they have that is what they are calling a soragoi with a kohaku pattern but to me that is an ochiba. I mainly post to learn from this group I am always looking for more information.

      I have a bunch of mutts that do not fall into a perfect catagory. I recently in the past 2 years got back into koi after a long break. Started with a small yellow koi I felt sorry for in a goldfish tank in a pet shop. Now I am rebuilding a pond for koi and looking for koi that I want to add. Most of what I have I will rehome, only a few of my mutts will stay, most were fry I got from a local from a flock spawn and ended up as butterfly and I prefer reg fins. If you have a chance look at the circled koi in the mutt catagory I am at a loss on its coloring.
      Learn by experience.................Preferably other peoples

    12. #12
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      Flock spawns will often produce interesting results but often we are looking at the results of multiple flocks spawns. Even planned pairings produce outside of the pairs type, this is very common.
      I think the most impressive flock spawn results was an incredibly nice Matsukawabake from a flock spawn in a Gosanke mud pond. The quality was astounding but I didn't expect to see in a pond of Gosanke.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    13. #13
      Melinda1102 is offline Senior Member
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      Okay this was a new one to me can anyone tell me what a Matalic Ochiba Utsuri is?? Is Matalic a breeder I have never heard of?
      Learn by experience.................Preferably other peoples

    14. #14
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      No, I bet it is metallic but spelled phonetically. An Ochiba Utsuri isn't really something that is common. Not saying it isn't possible to call something an Ochiba Utsuri but most likely is one of those one off type of looking koi.

      I have to ask, is there a pic and would you mind posting a link?
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    15. #15
      Melinda1102 is offline Senior Member
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      Had to steal a screen shot from facebook. And as you can see its not a metallic based koi so I don't think they meant metallic.
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      Last edited by Melinda1102; 1 Day Ago at 10:18 AM.
      Learn by experience.................Preferably other peoples

    16. #16
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      Well, the Japanese commonly use what it takes to make a koi in the name when it is a one off type. So I guess the breeder is saying there is Metallic, Ochiba and Utsuri shown in this koi.
      Years ago, I think it was Marusei that had some Cha Utsuri (Chagoi and Utsuri).

      If this kind of koi appeals to you, be sure to pay attention to conformation. Often a cross like this does not produce as strong a body as either a Chagoi or an Utsuri, for example.

      Is the breeder mentioned?
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    17. #17
      Melinda1102 is offline Senior Member
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      no breeder I just ran across it on facebook groups and it does not appeal to me was just wondering if it was something new. What appeals to me I simply can not afford.
      Last edited by Melinda1102; 1 Day Ago at 10:23 AM.
      Learn by experience.................Preferably other peoples

    18. #18
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      People are often fascinated by the unusual.

      There is a type called Kage and it can be Utsuri, Showa and others I'm sure. I was talking to Russ about it and my recollection of the conversation was the Otsuka and Hosokai both put in some work on them. While they are commonly called Kage in the US now, years ago they began as Asagi Utsuri and Asagi Showa. It gives a pretty clear picture on what was involved in making them, no?
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    19. #19
      Melinda1102 is offline Senior Member
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      Yes its clear on the making I am one that is not overly fascinated by the unusual. There is a few that have me interested but I am just more interested in what got my started in koi. I can not even seem to get into the metallic breeds. If I had it my way I would have a pond of nothing but showa, shiro utsuri and kohaku. But the showa I want is more old school style to me the newer ones I see being sold are just too white and not enough sumi.
      Learn by experience.................Preferably other peoples

    20. #20
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      I understand. I have similar preferences though I will say, a pond full of Gosanke with a couple really pretty single color koi (Soragoi, Aka Matsuba, Kigoi) is lovely. A Japanese person said to me that it gives the eye a place to rest. I think there is something to that.

      As breeders have worked to refine Showa, the wild Sumi days are subsiding. It's still very possible to find Sumi dominant Showa though.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

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