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  • Results 1 to 15 of 15

    Thread: What is my total head???

    1. #1
      Idaho Jim is offline Member
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      What is my total head???

      I am buying a Zakki Sieve to add to my Ultima II 4000 for our pond that is approximately 2500 gallons. We are upgrading our 1/12 HP old pump to something bigger at the same time. I am trying to figure out what I need as a pump. I am leaning towards the PerformancePro Artesian2 series. They seem to have a good reputation and the numbers (head and flow vs power and price) seem to be pretty good. I think I need either the 1/3 or 1/2 HP pump, but am struggling with figuring out which one.

      The Ultima II 4000 wants an "optimal" 4000 GPH. Currently we have about 1000 GPH (according to my filling a bucket test), and I think 4000 GPH would work well for our pond. Here is a rough schematic of the plumbing I have planned:
      Name:  NewPondDiagram.png
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      I made a spreadsheet of all the pipe lengths and fittings. For the flex PVC I multiplied it by 1.2, which seems a commonly accepted value. Using the calculator at http://www.freecalc.com/fricfram.htm came up with these numbers for the dynamic head for the plumbing at various flows. All pipe is 2" except the bog is 1 1/2":
      Name:  PondHead.PNG
Views: 257
Size:  30.9 KB

      I am assuming I can split up the flow as I did with the highlighted cells. By adding them all together, I get 7.6 feet of dynamic head. Does this look right?

      For static head, the main output is a drilled boulder 3 1/2 feet above the top of the pond. We want the majority of the flow here. There is also a bog that it output about 1 foot above the pond water level. We only want about ~800 GPH there, judging by our current pump. The equipment is in a shed about 6" above pond water level.

      Using the values from the spreadsheet, at 4000 GPH I have about 7.6 feet of head. Zak says the sieve at that height adds about 3 feet of static head. The boulder adds another 3 1/2 feet of head. Or does it? Should that be calculated from the pond water level or the sieve water level? That would reduce it to about 2 1/2 feet.

      Then there is the Ultima II 4000 filter. Man, the numbers for this thing are all over the place. Aqua Utraviolet says:

      "The filter flow loss ranges from 3-8ft of head, depending on how dirty the filter is"

      and also says:

      "*For example: If you have a 2,000 gallon pond and are using an Ultima ll 4,000 Filter the pump you
      choose must be rated at 4,000 gallons per hour at 10 feet of head pressure."

      Well this makes no sense. Between my static head and the dynamic head in the rest of the plumbing I have about 14 feet of total head before even adding the filter. If I get a pump that produces 4000 GPH at 10ft of head, I won't get anywhere near 4000 GPH through the filter.

      Looking around here and other places on the interwebs, there seems to be a rule of thumb to add 10 feet of head for a bead pressure filter. Adding that to the other 14 feet I have calculated, that pushed me beyond the 1/2 HP Artesian 2 pump. In fact, it pushes me into some wierd nether world where no pumps exist. The low head pumps stop at about 24 feet of head. Then the high head/high pressure pumps kick in at much higher flows for 24 feet of head.

      This is driving me NUTS! OK. I can be a bit obsessive (ask my wife), but I just don't want to buy the wrong pump and regret it months from now. My gut says the 1/3 HP Artesian 2 will do what we need. But it's driving be crazy that I can't get solid numbers to back that up. Any help would be MUCH appreciated.
      Last edited by Idaho Jim; 10-03-2019 at 09:58 AM.

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    2. #2
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Idaho Jim View Post

      Then there is the Ultima II 4000 filter. Man, the numbers for this thing are all over the place. Aqua Utraviolet says:

      "The filter flow loss ranges from 3-8ft of head, depending on how dirty the filter is"

      and also says:

      "*For example: If you have a 2,000 gallon pond and are using an Ultima ll 4,000 Filter the pump you
      choose must be rated at 4,000 gallons per hour at 10 feet of head pressure.
      "

      Well this makes no sense. Between my static head and the dynamic head in the rest of the plumbing I have about 14 feet of total head before even adding the filter. If I get a pump that produces 4000 GPH at 10ft of head, I won't get anywhere near 4000 GPH through the filter.
      Looking at the website the paragraph before the one I quoted in red reads:

      Ultima II Filters 1,000, 2,000, 4,000, and 6,000 Models

      Do not proceed with your filter installation if your filter and pump flow don't match, If you choose to oversize your Ultima II Filter you must upgrade the pump to match it.
      So I think they're just saying that figuring the head through the filter alone, if you upgraded from a 2000 gallon model
      to a 4000 gallon model, you'd need to increase the pump size so you can flow of 4000 gph @ 10' of head.

      I've never owned a Zakki sieve but since it's on the suction side of the pump I think the static head to the
      waterfall would be measured from the height of sieve or pump. Remember too that "static suction head" begins
      at pond water level, not below it.

      I'm kind of confused by the chart... is line 2, "PVC" the size of the pipe? If so, 4 - 2" pipes have an area
      of about 1 - 4" pipe when combined, not 8". Not sure if that make much difference in the calculations.

      If you haven't seen it there's an article a member wrote that might help, and hopefully it won't be more
      confusing :

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/attac...8&d=1364954739

      Edit: Also you don't need to add any pipe length or fittings on the bypass runs that aren't being used
      in normal flow.
      --Steve



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    3. #3
      Idaho Jim is offline Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I'm kind of confused by the chart... is line 2, "PVC" the size of the pipe? If so, 4 - 2" pipes have an area
      of about 1 - 4" pipe when combined, not 8". Not sure if that make much difference in the calculations.
      Line 2 is the number of feet of rigid PVC. I've updated the chart to make things a bit more clear. All pipe is 2" except the bog line is 1 1/2".

      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      If you haven't seen it there's an article a member wrote that might help, and hopefully it won't be more
      confusing :

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/attac...8&d=1364954739
      Yeah, I've looked at that. This is one of the sources that just says to add 10 feet for a bead filter...

    4. #4
      batman is offline Senior Member
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      The flow requirements for the Ultima are for proper backwash. Some add a blower to assist flushing the the filter when flows are lower. On the surface looks like a high head system. When getting into parallel circuits they are unique and not easily calculated by the linked online calculator. Since all devices are above ground just use the max height you are raising the water over the pond water level as the pumps total head lifted (static) head and ignore the suction side vertical lift distance. Add in Zac's estimate for friction sieve loss with other friction losses.

      I would ask Zac for a pump recommendation. If you have too much flow the pump can be restricted with a ball valve with no damage.
      Last edited by batman; 10-06-2019 at 05:03 PM.
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    5. #5
      Grumpy is offline Senior Member
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      The manufacturer states 8 feet of head loss for the bead filter when in use, so 10 feet is a good assumption since misc piping issues always exist. Some of the piping carries 60 gpm, is that in your chart? Just a guess, but it looks like your total dynamic losses approach an additional 10 feet of head?

    6. #6
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Idaho Jim View Post
      Line 2 is the number of feet of rigid PVC. I've updated the chart to make things a bit more clear. All pipe is 2" except the bog line is 1 1/2".
      I'm assuming most of the pipe runs are existing and buried? The 2" pipe is really restricting your flow, especially at the higher pump flows.
      Plug 3" pipe in the calculator instead of 2" and you can see the difference.
      --Steve



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    7. #7
      Idaho Jim is offline Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I'm assuming most of the pipe runs are existing and buried? The 2" pipe is really restricting your flow, especially at the higher pump flows.
      Plug 3" pipe in the calculator instead of 2" and you can see the difference.
      Yes, all the lines to the pond are existing and buried. No chance in changing the skimmer or bog lines. I could possibly upsize a chunk of the boulder line, but that would only be for about 15 feet of it. I don't think it would be worth the effort...

    8. #8
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      I'll make things even more simple … Get the 1/2 hp pump. My setup is almost identical to yours. The PP Artesian 2 pump has been troublefree since installation a number of years back. Make sure you have a ball valve after the pump so you can fine tune pump output. Figuring total head can drive you crazy with all the detailed variables. If you miscalculate and get a pump model that is too small, you are stuck. If you get the bigger pump, you have room for error, and can throttle volume back slightly if you need to.

    9. #9
      batman is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by stevek View Post
      I'll make things even more simple … Get the 1/2 hp pump. My setup is almost identical to yours. The PP Artesian 2 pump has been troublefree since installation a number of years back. Make sure you have a ball valve after the pump so you can fine tune pump output. Figuring total head can drive you crazy with all the detailed variables. If you miscalculate and get a pump model that is too small, you are stuck. If you get the bigger pump, you have room for error, and can throttle volume back slightly if you need to.
      Which 1/2 hp pump do you have?
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    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by batman View Post
      Which 1/2 hp pump do you have?
      I have the A2-1/2- 76. I was going through the exact same process Idaho Jim is now going through, as to whether to get the 1/3 or 1/2 HP pump. With my setup, Zac recommended the 1/2 with the ball valve , and he was right on the money.
      I was just rereading the OP ; I was assuming the head calculation had been calculated and the solution was borderline between the 1/3 and 1/2. If total head is north of 24 ft , then I would definitely defer to Zac for a recommendation. You may need to get one of the high head models, but I believe that will increase electrical cost.

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    11. #11
      ricshaw is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Idaho Jim View Post
      I am buying a Zakki Sieve to add to my Ultima II 4000 for our pond that is approximately 2500 gallons. We are upgrading our 1/12 HP old pump to something bigger at the same time. I am trying to figure out what I need as a pump. I am leaning towards the PerformancePro Artesian2 series. They seem to have a good reputation and the numbers (head and flow vs power and price) seem to be pretty good. I think I need either the 1/3 or 1/2 HP pump, but am struggling with figuring out which one.

      The Ultima II 4000 wants an "optimal" 4000 GPH. Currently we have about 1000 GPH (according to my filling a bucket test), and I think 4000 GPH would work well for our pond.
      Match the pump to the Ultima II 4000 pump recommendation. The recommended pump is what is needed to do a proper back flush cleaning of the Ultima II 4000. Think of the Zakki Sieve as just an additional GIANT pump leaf trap before the pump.


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    12. #12
      Idaho Jim is offline Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
      Match the pump to the Ultima II 4000 pump recommendation. The recommended pump is what is needed to do a proper back flush cleaning of the Ultima II 4000. Think of the Zakki Sieve as just an additional GIANT pump leaf trap before the pump.
      Yeah, but if I just did that, the 1/4 HP A2-1/4-47 would be the right choice. It provides very close to 4000 GPH at 10 feet of head. However, it would not be sufficient for the entire system. With that pump and optimistic head numbers, I would only get about 2400 GPH. I need to figure out how the rest of the system applies to their recommendation.

    13. #13
      Zac Penn is offline Supporting Member
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      Sorry for the delay, but I have been fabricating like crazy trying to catch up. I don't have an EXACT number for you as to what the total system head loss is, but based on my extensive experience with PerfPro pumps and filter system plumbing, I am going to absolutely recommend the A2-1/2-76-C water pump. It will probably be a little bit high on the flow for what you want, but that is what ball valves are for The A2-1/3-63-C will be under powered and probably only give 3500 GPH max on this system.

      During the winter when you slow the flow down by 1/3 or more, you can swap out the 1/2 hp for the A2-1/8-39-C version because they have the same wet end. On your system, the normal operation will be consuming about 530 watts at 20' of head. If you were to restrict the 1/2 hp pump with a ball valve to reduce you flow during winter the wattage would be closer to 350 watts. That is based on my test results from the Pump Testing Station thread. I don't have the exact test numbers on the 1/8 hp pump, but I would guesstimate the wattage to be around 150-160 watts and around 1000-1500 GPH. The upfront cost of the second pump will take a while to overcome, but in 2-3 years it is free money, and the pump will last 10+ years without any hiccups.
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    14. #14
      Idaho Jim is offline Member
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      Thanks for the response Zak. I will definitely go with the A2-1/2-76-C pump and add a ball valve immediately after it.. For the winter, I think I will just run the same pump with the flow reduced. Assuming that I won't do any harm to it by reducing the flow to about 500 GPH or so, I can use the additional "wasted" watts to help heat the insulated box I build in the shed for the equipment in the winter.
      Last edited by Idaho Jim; 10-09-2019 at 04:07 PM.

    15. #15
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      Hello Jim. I sent you a PM with my contact info. I have an almost identical build going on if you want to chat.

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