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    Thread: Zero Nitrates?

    1. #1
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      Zero Nitrates?

      My pond is about 2 months old. I haven't been too concerned about the water parameters, because I started my 55 gallon MB with 4 cu. ft. of well seasoned k1 media and have had a fairly light fish load of only goldfish. I checked the water today for the first time and was surprised that nitrates are pretty close to 0. Ammonia and nitrites are also close enough to 0. Isn't this kind of unusual? I do have plants (water lilies, cattails, pickerel rush) that are consuming nitrates, but I am still surprised because my source water contains nitrates at about 25ppm.

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      I don't think it's impossible for a pond your size with such a light bio load. Plants and algae will consume some amount of nitrates. I do think this is harder to achieve and ponds more heavily stocked with large koi. But just to be sure, you did shake bottle #2 for 30 seconds and then the tube for 60 seconds right???

      Here are my typical nitrate levels on my 4000g with 30+ tosai and a constant drip of 200 gpd. I'm quite happy with this (about 30ppm) as I've had fish tanks that I could never get this low. However once these fish start to grow I'm sure the levels will climb.


    3. #3
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      Please show us a side by side comparison pic of source water vs pond water nitrate.
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      Quote Originally Posted by jcardona1 View Post
      I don't think it's impossible for a pond your size with such a light bio load. Plants and algae will consume some amount of nitrates. I do think this is harder to achieve and ponds more heavily stocked with large koi. But just to be sure, you did shake bottle #2 for 30 seconds and then the tube for 60 seconds right???

      Here are my typical nitrate levels on my 4000g with 30+ tosai and a constant drip of 200 gpd. I'm quite happy with this (about 30ppm) as I've had fish tanks that I could never get this low. However once these fish start to grow I'm sure the levels will climb.
      Yes I did the test correctly and exactly as you stated. I have tested it again along with another test of my source
      water. You would think I reversed them, but I was VERY careful not to mix them up and even labeled them to be sure. Here is a picture with the source water on the left and the pond water on the right.

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    5. #5
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      That is surprising. I would call your water supplier in regards to this possible violation or is your water supply from a well? Nitrates should be no more than 10ppm at the tap to prevent blue baby syndrome. Does your water utility chlorinate or chloraminate?
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      That is surprising. I would call your water supplier in regards to this possible violation or is your water supply from a well? Nitrates should be no more than 10ppm at the tap to prevent blue baby syndrome. Does your water utility chlorinate or chloraminate?
      Subsequent independent surveys in midwestern states confirmed the initial results in Iowa. The most complete survey of all 48 states, plus what were then the territories of Alaska and Hawaii, was compiled in 1951 and identified 278 cases with 39 deaths. No cases were found in which wells contained 10 parts per million nitrate nitrogen or less, and only 2.3 percent of the cases involved wells with between 10 and 20 parts per million. Above 20 parts per million, the severity of the symptoms seemed to parallel the amount of nitrate present. Breastfed infants were never involved; neither were families who used municipal water supplies. No reports of cases prior to World War II were found. However, physician reporting was not mandatory for the condition, and the true number may have been much higher.
      But by the time that report was published, the worst seemed to have passed, and the number of cases fell off steadily through the early 1950s. Today the disease has all but disappeared, with reports appearing only sporadically in the literature. Only two cases have been reported since the mid-1960s and none since 2000. Within 10 years the epidemic had waned as suddenly as it had appeared, without any preventive action having knowingly been taken. Whether it was because of public awareness, a massive improvement in rural drinking water quality, a trend toward breastfeeding or other factors may never be known.

      Here is another interesting read about the subject
      https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics...-baby-syndrome
      Last edited by kdh; 06-25-2019 at 07:09 PM.

    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      That is surprising. I would call your water supplier in regards to this possible violation or is your water supply from a well? Nitrates should be no more than 10ppm at the tap to prevent blue baby syndrome. Does your water utility chlorinate or chloraminate?
      Yes we are on a well...rural SC farm country.

      Quote Originally Posted by kdh View Post
      Subsequent independent surveys in midwestern states confirmed the initial results in Iowa. The most complete survey of all 48 states, plus what were then the territories of Alaska and Hawaii, was compiled in 1951 and identified 278 cases with 39 deaths. No cases were found in which wells contained 10 parts per million nitrate nitrogen or less, and only 2.3 percent of the cases involved wells with between 10 and 20 parts per million. Above 20 parts per million, the severity of the symptoms seemed to parallel the amount of nitrate present. Breastfed infants were never involved; neither were families who used municipal water supplies. No reports of cases prior to World War II were found. However, physician reporting was not mandatory for the condition, and the true number may have been much higher.
      But by the time that report was published, the worst seemed to have passed, and the number of cases fell off steadily through the early 1950s. Today the disease has all but disappeared, with reports appearing only sporadically in the literature. Only two cases have been reported since the mid-1960s and none since 2000. Within 10 years the epidemic had waned as suddenly as it had appeared, without any preventive action having knowingly been taken. Whether it was because of public awareness, a massive improvement in rural drinking water quality, a trend toward breastfeeding or other factors may never be known.

      Here is another interesting read about the subject
      https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics...-baby-syndrome
      I've never heard of Blue Baby Syndrome. You are a regular walking encyclopedia...seriously!

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      Time to get serious about rainwater containment tanks!

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      Start drinking your pond water!
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    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by pickerel View Post
      Yes we are on a well...rural SC farm country.



      I've never heard of Blue Baby Syndrome. You are a regular walking encyclopedia...seriously!
      I know nothing about anything. Just googled.

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    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by kdh View Post
      I know nothing about anything. Just googled.
      .

      Haha . U know a thing or 2

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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      .

      Haha . U know a thing or 2
      Your correct I know two things,taxes and death are always around the corner? lol

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      API and most aquarium test kits use nitrate units. The US legal limit is 10 mg/L nitrate-nitrogen. The conversion is to multiply nitrate-nitrogen by 4.43 so the legal limit is actually 44.3. The WHO limit is 50 mg/L nitrate or 11 mg/L nitrate-nitrogen.mg/L nitrate.

      And even that limit is probably too low:

      https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/pdf/10.1289/ehp.7216

      On behalf of the World Health Organization (WHO), I have undertaken a series of literature-based investigations examining the global burden of disease related to a number of environmental risk factors associated with drinking water. In this article I outline the investigation of drinking-water nitrate concentration and methemoglobinemia. The exposure assessment was based on levels of nitrate in drinking water greater than the WHO guideline value of 50 mg/L. No exposure–response relationship, however, could be identified that related drinking-water nitrate level to methemoglobinemia. Indeed, although it has previously been accepted that consumption of drinking water high in nitrates causes methemoglobinemia in infants, it appears now that nitrate may be one of a number of co-factors that play a sometimes complex role in causing the disease. I conclude that, given the apparently low incidence of possible water-related methemoglobinemia, the complex nature of the role of nitrates, and that of individual behavior, it is currently inappropriate to attempt to link illness rates with drinking-water nitrate levels.
      https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/abs/10.1289/ehp.99107583

      Ingestion of nitrates in drinking water has long been thought to be a primary cause of acquired infantile methemoglobinemia, often called blue baby syndrome. However, recent research and a review of historical cases offer a more complex picture of the causes of infantile methemoglobinemia. Gastrointestinal infection and inflammation and the ensuing overproduction of nitric oxide may be the cause of many cases of infantile methemoglobinemia previously attributed to drinking water nitrates. If so, current limits on allowable levels of nitrates in drinking water, which are based solely on the health threat of infantile methemoglobinemia, may be unnecessarily strict.

    14. #14
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      The original question was intended to be about 0 nitrates in the pond and how that relates to general pond health. I would find any additional comments on that much more interesting since we haven't had a baby around here for over 30 years.

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      Quote Originally Posted by KOIAnon View Post
      API and most aquarium test kits use nitrate units. The US legal limit is 10 mg/L nitrate-nitrogen. The conversion is to multiply nitrate-nitrogen by 4.43 so the legal limit is actually 44.3. The WHO limit is 50 mg/L nitrate or 11 mg/L nitrate-nitrogen.mg/L nitrate.
      What do you mean by a "nitrate unit?" The color card with the API kit clearly states it is measuring in PPM.
      According to Google: One thousanth of a gram is one milligram and 1000 ml is one liter, so that 1 ppm = 1 mg per liter = mg/Liter.

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      Quote Originally Posted by pickerel View Post
      What do you mean by a "nitrate unit?" The color card with the API kit clearly states it is measuring in PPM.
      According to Google: One thousanth of a gram is one milligram and 1000 ml is one liter, so that 1 ppm = 1 mg per liter = mg/Liter.
      Nitrate is NO3-

    17. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by pickerel View Post
      The original question was intended to be about 0 nitrates in the pond and how that relates to general pond health. I would find any additional comments on that much more interesting since we haven't had a baby around here for over 30 years.
      Having zero nitrates is great because nitrate is considered a pollutant. However you have to ask why you have zero nitrates. I kind of know your pond a bit and I know your filter is not mature because it is new. So your zero nitrates stems from algae consuming it. Having algae poses risks because it pulls C02 out of the water causing significant PH swings and fish will have to deal with this through energy expenditure. It is good in way that you started out with goldfish because koi generally are sensitive to ph swings. Also, depending of the type of algae growing, some algae produce algal toxins. Some GF and koi are more tolerant to these toxins especially koi mutts.

      With an abundance of algae in the background of zero nitrates, you can be guaranteed your filters aren't working.

      Plants does not contribute much. Apparently you'll have to have a lot of plants to make a difference.

      Anoxic areas in your pond can contribute and I'm thinking about your planters depending of how much you have. There would be anoxic areas in these planters where denitrification is taking place. The problem with having zero nitrates is that with zero nitrate anoxic areas will go down to the last step of the redox gradient. At this step instead of nitrate being used as the final electron acceptor, sulphate will be used. When sulphate is reduced, by product is hydrogen sulphide (H2S) which is very toxic to fish. You will have a touch of H2S coming out anoxic areas such as planters but this would not pose a risk as it will be re-oxygenated as it comes out. H2S is only a problem when you disturb anoxic areas exposing fish to a slug of H2S. Hence in my pond I am happy with nitrates of 5-10mg/L. Zero nitrates for me means I am overburdened with algae and the health problems that may come with that. Zero nitrates for me could also mean possible exposure to toxic levels of H2S should my pumps stop due to power failure and restart again without my presence.
      Last edited by KoiRun; 06-26-2019 at 03:34 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by pickerel View Post
      What do you mean by a "nitrate unit?" The color card with the API kit clearly states it is measuring in PPM.
      According to Google: One thousanth of a gram is one milligram and 1000 ml is one liter, so that 1 ppm = 1 mg per liter = mg/Liter.
      Nitrate weight = 62 (1 nitrogen + 3 oxygen) and nitrogen weight = 14, meaning 62ppm of nitrate equals to 14ppm of nitrogen in that amount of nitrate. Depending on which one of the two API/WHO/US-EPA refer to, the numerical value may be different .

    19. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      Having zero nitrates is great because nitrate is considered a pollutant. However you have to ask why you have zero nitrates. I kind of know your pond a bit and I know your filter is not mature because it is new. So your zero nitrates stems from algae consuming it. Having algae poses risks because it pulls C02 out of the water causing significant PH swings and fish will have to deal with this through energy expenditure. It is good in way that you started out with goldfish because koi generally are sensitive to ph swings. Also, depending of the type of algae growing, some algae produce algal toxins. Some GF and koi are more tolerant to these toxins especially koi mutts.

      With an abundance of algae in the background of zero nitrates, you can be guaranteed your filters aren't working.

      Plants does not contribute much. Apparently you'll have to have a lot of plants to make a difference.

      Anoxic areas in your pond can contribute and I'm thinking about your planters depending of how much you have. There would be anoxic areas in these planters where denitrification is taking place. The problem with having zero nitrates is that with zero nitrate anoxic areas will go down to the last step of the redox gradient. At this step instead of nitrate being used as the final electron acceptor, sulphate will be used. When sulphate is reduced, by product is hydrogen sulphide (H2S) which is very toxic to fish. You will have a touch of H2S coming out anoxic areas such as planters but this would not pose a risk as it will be re-oxygenated as it comes out. H2S is only a problem when you disturb anoxic areas exposing fish to a slug of H2S. Hence in my pond I am happy with nitrates of 5-10mg/L. Zero nitrates for me means I am overburdened with algae and the health problems that may come with that. Zero nitrates for me could also mean possible exposure to toxic levels of H2S should my pumps stop due to power failure and restart again without my presence.
      Thank you for such a detailed explanation. This makes sense but I don't have a lot of algae in the pond. I have a very thin layer of carpet algae on the liner, but that's it...no green water since I installed a UV. Also, way back in October I cycled all this k1 media in a MB for my stock tank temporary housing. I fed it ammonia for about 3 weeks until I started seeing nitrites, and then it supported the fish for 6 months before I moved it to its current location for the main pond. It has a light tan color to it, so I figured it is doing its job. I also add baking soda to keep the kH up around 150. I just measured the pH and it is 8.4. I thought that is supposed to protect the pond from pH swings.

      So what should I do? Feed more? Is it just a matter of waiting for the pond to mature?

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    20. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by AkwaKoi View Post
      Nitrate weight = 62 (1 nitrogen + 3 oxygen) and nitrogen weight = 14, meaning 62ppm of nitrate equals to 14ppm of nitrogen in that amount of nitrate. Depending on which one of the two API/WHO/US-EPA refer to, the numerical value may be different .
      Thank you for this. I'm finally starting to get it now.

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