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    Thread: Matt's "ad lib" Showa Spawn 2019

    1. #21
      HAMMATRON is offline Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      If I get a dark tobi... yellow ones, and I've decided not to keep yellow this year...just keeping the black ones.
      How are you differentiating between the dark and black ones? what has been your general experience with what the yellow ones become?

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    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by HAMMATRON View Post
      How are you differentiating between the dark and black ones? what has been your general experience with what the yellow ones become?
      Sorry, I was using the terms "dark" and "black" interchangeably. They are not truly black at this stage, more of a very dark gray, approaching black. In showa spawns, and utsuri too I suppose, the best quality fry tend to be the ones that are dark when young. So the pros generally cull all the yellow ones when they are a few days old. The dark ones become showa, shiro utsuri, and aka utsuri.

      The yellow ones (usually the majority) become aka muji, shiro muji, or kohaku, usually with low quality patterns.

      For examples, see the ones with no black on them in posts 119, 120, and 126 of
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...awn-2018/page6
      These are one-year-olds from the 2018 spawn.

      Post 163 of the link below shows a 4 year old male kohaku that I still have. I like the color and I find the pattern interesting though it is very low quality.
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...awn-2015/page9

    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      … I've netted most of the fry and done a selection, just keeping the black ones. They were about 1/3 of the total, but now its more like 85% dark. …
      This was about 6 hours of tedious dipping. Since then I've taken out a little more yellow here and there.

      I'm feeding them mostly pulverized powder from adult koi pellets, run through a coffee grinder, but with a little bit of active dry yeast. I am also putting in some of the blended high-protein mix. The blend is typically about 75-80% canned seafood (tuna, sardines, salmon, mackerel, et cetera) and about 20-25% canned vegetables (peas, beans, pumpkin, veg-all, et cetera).

    4. #24
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      Matt, 6 hours ouch, was that off and on or a continuous 6 hour grind? That don't sound like a small spawn?

      Now that I think about it, Kohaku is easier, I hate that part of showa selection. Maybe you can use a Turkey baser to suck the black ones up?
      Last edited by Roger; 06-23-2019 at 02:11 AM.

    5. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
      Matt, 6 hours ouch, was that off and on or a continuous 6 hour grind? That don't sound like a small spawn?

      Now that I think about it, Kohaku is easier, I hate that part of showa selection. Maybe you can use a Turkey baser to suck the black ones up?
      Yep that was 6 hours straight, other than a couple of very brief breaks. With a table and a comfortable chair in the shade, it was not too bad. Still, after about 4 hours, I had had about enough, but kept going. After looking at this link, I feel like I got off light. The breeder says that for the large koi that they use in spawning, the kuroko selection takes a team of 6 people a day-and-a-half to go through over half a million fry from one female. http://www.japan-nishikigoi.org/learn_2.html

      A turkey baster might have worked better. I don't know. The modified little net I was using was not designed for this purpose, but did okay. Next time I might try hanging a cloth or fine net in the pan that I put the fry in for selection. That is because the fry like to swim along the sides of the pan where it is difficult to dip them without squashing them with just a little bump. I did not lose many that way, it just took more patience. Overall, the fry seem to have taken it well. I have not been seeing floaters.

    6. #26
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      I was just blindly dipping a few (~20-30) out of the ice chest at a time without looking. One thing I found interesting was that the last half hour or so was the most challenging, not only because I was tired, but because the last few fry were the quickest. They were the ones that had been avoiding my net all afternoon. And the very last fry I caught out of the ice chest was a 7/8" tobi, the largest I had seen all day. This is an indication of how much quicker and more elusive they can become when they get a little larger.

    7. #27
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      Matt, I found this article about how to make cake or dough mash for fry on Sakai's website. He calls it bait: http://sff-koi.com/en/about-sakai-fi...original-bait/

      Also, I just recieved my order for 1/32" floating spirulina pellets: Min protein 40%, fishmeal, spirulina, krill, brine shrimp, plankton, wheat flour, fish oil, yeast, rose algae, astacin, wheat germ, stable multi vitamins, multi minerals. My tobies can eat eat it, and the smaller fry can nibble on it when it gets soft. It is the perfect size floating pellets for 2 month old fry, 8 lbs for around $50 free shipping. They have two types color up 35% protein and growth 40% protein.
      https://www.amazon.com/Pellets-Green...ay&sr=8-7&th=1
      Last edited by Roger; 06-24-2019 at 07:47 PM.

    8. #28
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      Thanks for all the food tips Roger. I took a few photos of these random fry on day 25. These pictured ones range from 3/8" to 3/4", though when I dipped for tobi, I found one that was 1.25".

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    9. #29
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      Matt, what an ordeal. i remember hearing about some kind of very fine little vacuum cleaner type object from Japan that sucks up the fry one at a time. idea is to suck up the keepers and they go into the keeper tub. I'm pretty sure bindi had one and i don't know what its called, but if anyone here has a clue, would be good to know!!!
      As always, Matt, thanks for sharing.
      It never gets old.



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    10. #30
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      Not exactly "off the shelf" but there's a DIY for the Koi Vacuum idea on here from a while back https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...um-Sorting-Fry

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    11. #31
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      Thanks HAMMATRON. Interesting idea to consider to save time and stress.

      Max, I am not sure what it is called either. Bindi called her homemade one a "kuroko machine", as it is typically used for selecting black (kuroko) fry.

    12. #32
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      Thanks HAMMATRON. Interesting idea to consider to save time and stress.

      Max, I am not sure what it is called either. Bindi called her homemade one a "kuroko machine", as it is typically used for selecting black (kuroko) fry.
      Matt, now that you found it! (good night that was fast.) All you gotta do now is cross your fingers and ask Mr. Google.



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    13. #33
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      Concept: Connect a small air tube to the suction port of a mini vacuum, insert other end of air tube into a container with air tight lid and position the air tube near the top of the container. Insert another tube into this air tight container and position it closer to the water.
      Last edited by Roger; 06-30-2019 at 05:53 PM.

    14. #34
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      Yesterday, I drained the green water low to look for tobi and removed 4 light colored ones that that were up to 2.5". The largest dark ones I saw were up to 1.75". Despite my efforts to remove the light colored ones, there are still a few left, but no big ones.

      I also dipped out much of the gunk on the bottom. As expected, the cheesecloth around the pump basket was completely gone. It only lasts a few days while the fry are tiny.

      At 5 weeks, the dark fry are showing more dark gray to light gray pattern, with the showa also displaying some dull yellow as well. But there is still a good bit of development to go before I will be able to judge too much in regard to colors / patterns. I randomly dipped a few into a tub for some pictures below.

      The last two photos show the hanging frisbee where I feed them their seafood chunk (light tan). The dark thing in the middle of the frisbee is a rock to keep it from floating.

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    15. #35
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      Can't wait to see them in a nother month or two

    16. #36
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      Matt, this is hard!
      I couldn't cull these for love or money.
      Keep us posted.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




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    17. #37
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      Matt, as I recall the green ones can condense into showa. I see one in the 5th picture from the top. It is the biggest one. Now, its a wait and see.

    18. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by Orlando View Post
      Can't wait to see them in a nother month or two
      Yeah, they tend to start coloring up in late summer. Should be fun to watch IF all goes well.

    19. #39
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      Matt, this is hard!
      I couldn't cull these for love or money.
      Keep us posted.
      The really tough culls are the ones that have nice colors and patterns but also deformities.

    20. #40
      Matt24's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
      Matt, as I recall the green ones can condense into showa. I see one in the 5th picture from the top. It is the biggest one. Now, its a wait and see.
      Maybe the green or dull dark yellow is a blend of sumi and yellow that will later be orange.

      A couple of days ago, I stopped including yeast in their powder food (pulverized adult pellets). I had given them a tablespoon of yeast a day for about 5 weeks, (3) 4 oz jars. I've also started just putting their seafood chunk on the frisbee and not also scattering some around the tub. And I put a little seafood chunk on the frisbee around dark, and they apparently ate quite a bit of it over the night.
      Last edited by Matt24; 07-06-2019 at 01:19 PM. Reason: Added feeding information.

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