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  • Results 1 to 16 of 16

    Thread: Sick german scale koi, just brought back from vet

    1. #1
      logreybeam is offline Junior Member
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      Unhappy Sick german scale koi, just brought back from vet

      Hello, I am very worried about all of my koi currently, but one in particular, a ~25" german-scale named Kumo...

      A little backstory,
      3 months ago, we got our pond expanded from roughly 1000 gallons to ~2000, and unfortunately there was a hidden leak somewhere in the liner so the fish were in and out of the pond several times into a 5'x5' holding tank, with nothing but heavy aeration when in there... This understandibly stressed them all out quite a bit... when they finally got back into their new home, which took nearly a month, there was a little bit of cycling time but not too long since we were able to save a portion of the water, and the biofilter stayed wet during all this time due to a one way valve in the plumbing.

      the pond has been fully cycled and all levels are great, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite/nitrite, ph roughly 7.8 but steady, water temp was in the ~69 range until we just got some cold rain, is now back down to 63ish... we have 9 koi in there ranging from 6" to 25" currently. (two are new, and like an idiot i did not quarantime them before putting in...) i also added some new plants to the pond, rinsing off the buckets before putting in.

      now all of the fish are experiencing various symptoms, from red veins on our white koi, to raised ulcers which look to have hemoragged a tiny bit in the middle, flashing.a couple weeks ago there was some bottom sitting as well as jumping going on as well, but that has all mellowed out.

      Kumo has some of the worst symptoms, as he has been a bit listless and his gill plates were very distended/loose looking.. he got some ammonia poisoning on his gills during the whole stay in the small holding tank but that was healing i thought(red marks turning darker).

      So we took him to a vet i found nearby that specializes in exotic animals, with koi being if not a specialty, at least something they work with... they did a gil clip, a fin clip, a body scrape, and a fecal exam...

      here is part of the discharge:

      "You were concerned about the appearance of his gills on the exam but what you were seeing is the skin of the operculum that is sloughing off (which is not normal). Underneath the operculum, the gills were very injected (dark in color) which is not normal either.

      His pectoral fins also had red discolorations on them, which we suspect could be associated with a secondary bacterial infection right now.

      We did a gill and fin clip on him, and the gill clip revealed flagellate parasites (in a small amount). The gills also had severe interlamellar epithelial hyperplasia (thickening) which is a sign of an inflammatory process.

      The fin clip didn't show anything in that sample.

      The skin (scale) scraping and cytology showed 1 element that looked like a fluke (but it was degraded), a lot of white blood cells and some bacteria (rods).

      Our recommendation for him would be to treat him for the flagellates, whic seems to be the main problem right now. The treatment of choice for this is metronidazole, which can be given orally (we can prescribe that). If you want to treat the whole group, you might have to give it in the food or in the water (we do not have these treatments).

      There is a possibility that they might have had flukes but we didn't see strong evidence of that. You could repeat the fluke treatment once more(i did a fluke-m treatment 7 days before bringing him in, hoping that was the problem). but we would be careful not to give both treatments at the same time because it could be hard on their liver. "

      The Fecal Result came back negative...
      The Dr said that the flagellets moved too fast and she wasnt able to ID them, but thought they might be Hexamita, but i was under the impression that if it was hex they would've shown up in the fecal and not just a few on the gills...


      I have no salt in there, as i've heard very different opinions on whether it helps with parasites or healing/bacterial infections...

      i Did repeat the fluke-m for a 2nd treatment 8 days after first, the day after bringing Kumo in.

      i'm at a loss of what to do at this point, the stress of chasing/getting these fish out of the pond one by one to treat individually would kill me if not them.

      Any insight, advice/etc would be super helpful at this point!

      Thank you all in advance...
      Gabe
      Pasadena,CA

    2. #2
      KoiRun's Avatar
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      What is your KH level? Have you measured daily PH swing; that is measuring the ph in the morning before the sun comes out and ph in the afternoon at peak sunlight.

      Any green water algae or string algae problem? Problem with water clarity or foam? Please describe the type of filters mechanical and biological and their maintenance. Pictures/video of the pond/fish/filters should help.

      The good vet have given you a diagnosis and plan of treatment (rx metronidazole orally). Sounds great to me, what is there to be "at a loss" about? Sounds like you will be given a prescription, something you mix with koi food, and you will have to give it yourself. No further need to chase and net them individually for treatments. Hopefully they have good appetite to eat them medicated food.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



    3. #3
      logreybeam is offline Junior Member
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      hi and thanks for the prompt reply!

      my kH is showing in the slightly high part of the ideal range, pH swing is very minimal, maybe .2 over the course of the day... the water itself is very clear, no string algae but some nice green moss in the falls.. no foam... have a 3600gph pump in a skimmer filter that splits to my biofilter falls as well as a new falls that i've put some hyacinths in..

      i guess my question about the metronidazole is if the flagellete she saw isnt hex, will this even be effective, and should there be that much damage from a small amount of flagelletes in the gills? should i have the one with the ulcers get a scrape as well or should i expect that what one fish has, all the others do as well?

      including some photos for reference..

      https://www.dropbox.com/s/y87s97kwd73w9gj/Kumo.JPG

      https://www.dropbox.com/s/5u4p9zl1udc1zq2/Sumo.JPG

      https://www.dropbox.com/s/sbwgxmyy05uxd5j/bonnet.jpg
      Last edited by logreybeam; 4 Weeks Ago at 11:34 PM.

    4. #4
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      Metronidazole (Flagyl) covers a range of parasitic (flagellated) infections (so not just hexamita). It also cover a range of bacterial infections. Per vet, metronidazole "can be given orally (we can prescribe that)" but how? Mixed with food, via oral tube? Who will give it? It also sounds like the vet is giving you the option of treating the whole group but "you might have to give it the food (we do not have these treatments)" (?). I don't understand this part, the vet already said metronidazole can be given orally.

      Also what is your KH in actual number and what test kit are you using?
      Can we have a picture of Kumo?

    5. #5
      logreybeam is offline Junior Member
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      i will call the vet and ask for clarification of how she intended on doing oral dosing of kumo, and if i can use that to make medicated food or if i'll have to buy metronizidaole powder and make my own food.. i'm always concerned with dosing when making medicated food, as making sure each fish eats the same/appropriate amount is always tricky...

      GH is 200
      KH is 175
      I am using API all in one strips strips currently for kh/gh, and the drops for ph/nitrate/nitrate/ammonia. i brought pond water and my test results into the vet to have her verifiy them, which they did...

      woke up to breeding behavior again, this has been like the 4th time this spring what with our weather constantly getting warmer/colder this season, so getting another picture of kumo proved to be impossible. (i need a polarizer filter for my camera, will help cut the reflections)

      Thanks again!
      .gabe
      Last edited by logreybeam; 4 Weeks Ago at 02:19 PM.

    6. #6
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      Breeding behaviour is a good sign. Same with chasing, schooling and rummaging for food.
      It really sounds like Kumo is over his acute phase and perhaps recovering all by himself (as he should) given good water quality. And as you say the bunch has all mellowed out from their flashing/isolating. Kumo's gill plate were red but now appears to be turning darker (healing). The up and down weather and the pond being small, temperatures swing up and down is a bit of a hamper but there is a general trend to warmer water temperature which should further help in recovery. I would closely inspect each skin lesion daily to see if (1) they are getting worst (2) have stabilized (3) or getting better.

      I would still follow what the vet recommends as kumo is under her care. It is reassuring though that you have a vet close by that work with koi and already knows you koi (should anytime kumo decompensate).

      Also the API KH drop test kit is highly recommended here is really accurate. Get it to monitor KH. I'm assuming you're using the high range PH solution to test for PH and that you're following the instructions exactly for testing nitrate (if can be tricky). Typically there is always some trace of nitrates (not zero) and PH is typically in the 8.0 to 8.3 range with KH above 100 ppm. Ph swings are typical during spring warm up (especially new ponds/unshaded ponds), so monitor closely.
      Last edited by KoiRun; 4 Weeks Ago at 03:19 PM.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



    7. #7
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      With your pond getting an enlargement recently, I don't think that the problem is due to accumulated debris/sludge down in the rocks, but rock bottom ponds, without removal and cleaning of the rock about annually, tend to become cesspools and cause problems in the future. Because most builders tend to exaggerate, I would be very concerned about the true volume of the pond. If it was not metered in, but guestimated by the builder, then I would suggest you get a salinty meter and using solar crystal, water softener salt, measure the salinity before adding any salt, and a day after the addition. Because of the plants, I would add about 10 pounds (weighed) and see what the change in salinity is, and using the calculator at the top of the page, you can get a very close measurement. Treating the pond with most chemicals becomes hazardous if not dosed per instructions.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    8. #8
      logreybeam is offline Junior Member
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      oh, Super smart idea re: calculating actual pond size via salinity change! Thanks, i will definitely do that

    9. #9
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      is there a salinity meter that is recommended here? i'll order one asap...

    10. #10
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      There are salinity meters designed for ponds, like https://www.amazon.com/Aquascape-Koi.../dp/B000N2ABKY or you can use a TDS meter such as https://www.amazon.com/Professional-...01K3KWDAGB3YZ4 with the biggest difference being, the KoiMedic can read % where the TDS reads in PPM, with 1000ppm = to 0.1%.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
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    11. #11
      logreybeam is offline Junior Member
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      ordered the TDS meter, i can do an extra calculation for the cost difference what is the general consensus on this koiZyme or similar products? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 wondering if this would be a good thing to use to help them recover from the bacteria infections... Thanks again for all of the help here! you guys are great

    12. #12
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      Any updates on Kumos condition, treatments and current water condition?
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



    13. #13
      logreybeam is offline Junior Member
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      he's acting a LOT better, thanks! i washed out all the filter media and did a 25% water change a few days back.. i realized that with the water stagnant in the bio filter/falls while they were working on the leak probably made for some gross conditions in there, and i was right... vacuumed out all the sludge/etc as well.. Kumo is actually hanging out with everyone for the most part, schooling/etc... he's still a little slow to get the food as everyone kinda pushes him away but he's getting plenty of pellets.. i've held off on the Metronidazole so far, the vet only had oral tablets that they want me to use a feeding tube/syringe to administer with.. due to the amount of caves/hiding places for the fish and the stress of catching/feeding each one, she is looking into getting powder form that i can make medicated food with.

      The Ulcers on Sumo havent gotten any worse, and i believe one of them looks a bit better. Water conditions have been stable, im using powdered SeaChem Safe when doing partial changes and adding water.

      i was looking at a product called koiZyme that claims to be 'enzymes, micro nutrients and bacteria that compete with Pseudomonas and Aeromonas bacteria for the nutrients from fish waste in your pond water. Aeromonas is by far the largest killer of pond fish. The end result is Koizyme starves the Pseudomonas and Aeromonas bacteria to a point where they can no longer hurt pond fish...' is this snake oil or something that might be helpful to assist with healing?

      today the TDS meter comes along with the api kh/gh drops, so i'll have a more accurate gallon size and kh info now..

      Thanks again!
      .gabe

    14. #14
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      I think what happened is this. Before your pond expansion several months ago your koi were at a weakened state. This is normal as the temps gets fairly low. Some fish would be in a resting state, again normal. During the reno, being in a small holding tank stressed them out as you stated. Probable because of the new environment, small environment, poor water quality. They likely suffered ammonia burn to skin and gills. Most of fish immunity is on the mucus layer of their skin and gills. This allowed parasites and bacteria to enter. Sludge (bacteria/parasites/organics) was also allowed to enter the pond suspended the during work being done on the bio filter/falls. This sludge could contain pathogenic enough load that was too much for them to handle. The two new fish did not help either. They could have introduced new bacteria/parasite they were not immunized against and at lower temps adaptive immunity could take a long time even for a well koi.

      Adding koiZyme at present I would consider as a "class IIIb treatment" that is it's "usefulness/effectiveness is unknown/unclear/uncertain or not well established." Compare to a "class I - should be performed/administered" such as maintaining a healing water parameter and vacuuming sludge.

      If and when you do use salt to figure out pond volume using your TDS pen you might see foam on the water surface and stuck in the skimmer. I would recommend you vacuum out this foam as it is made out of organics. Perform your usual water changes after.

      With having a vet close by that can prescribe antibiotics, I would read up on sedating and giving intramuscular antibiotics on koi should you ever have to do it "Class I treatment" on a septic koi.

      As Rich stated start to slowly take away rocks/caves/hiding places. Rather vacuum and institute shading and predator protection methods.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



    15. #15
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      Back when KoiZyme came out, I was a member of the Mid-Atlantic Koi Club, and the club had been used as a test cite for the KoiZyme, with reports being done of pre-treatment levels of pathogenic bacteria in what is called CFU's, colony forming units, and test results by the test ponds periodically over the next few months. There was reported a significant reduction in the CFU counts. Does that reduction translate into fewer ulcers? I don't know for sure, but I used KoiZyme for several years, and then switched to a similar product by the name of AquaMedZyme Dry Concentrate, which I thought was a better product.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
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    16. #16
      logreybeam is offline Junior Member
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      oh nice, the medZyme showed up in my searches as well... worth a shot! also one thing i forgot to mention, we Are on well water from a small private water company that just handles our canyon... and unfortunately the latest report i could find from their website was 2017, but i figure it's better than nothing..

      https://www.dropbox.com/s/xq1jvirxnc...terReport1.png
      https://www.dropbox.com/s/3jezoacvju...terReport2.png

      not sure if that adds anything to the equation, but i figured the more info available the better!
      .gabe

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