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    Thread: First REAL Try - Doitsu Kohaku (F) & Kumonryu? (M) Sanke (M)

    1. #21
      Roger's Avatar
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      My fry tank water is warm to touch in the morning where I live. The water coming out of the faucet is cold in comparison. I also had a lot of dead fry in the tank that I keep clean, until I made the adjustment. I am pretty much sure it is the water changes that I do every morning that made them die. I previously used the water hose to gently flush what ever was on the bottom to the back end of my 300 gal tank where the water exits through my Hydra Pro #5 sponge filters on two-one inch pvc into a trash bin bio filter, and pumped backed into the tank by a 900 gal per hour submersible mag pump. The ventriled return is submerged into the water about 3/4 of the way down and is slanted to the front end where the water is dispersed evenly to both sides. The middle to back end of the tank is calm. There is absolutely no ammonia or nitrite.

      The adjustment I made is I don't use the water hose to flush the bottom anymore. I use a turkey baser to flush the bottom debri to the back end. Also, I reduced the speed in which the tab water refills the tank, giving them time to adjust to the change in temperature. This made a big difference.

      Oh by the way, I have another 600 gal tank with 300 gal of water that I don't clean every morning and the fry in that tank is the same age, but 4 times bigger. The filter set up is different, it has a flow through lava rock planter, 4 submersible sponge filter pumps and a 2000 gal per hour external pump hooked up to an ultima 2000 filter which circulates the water in a 100 gallon tank which returns the water from two of the submersible sponge filter pumps back into the tank through a one inch pvc. There is absolutely no ammonia or nitrite.

      In conclusion, my fry deaths were caused by my Obsessive–compulsive disorder.

      (OCD) is a mental disorder in which a person feels the need to perform certain routines repeatedly (called "compulsions"), or has certain thoughts repeatedly (called "obsessions").[1] The person is unable to control either the thoughts or activities for more than a short period of time.[1
      Last edited by Roger; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:25 AM.

    2. #22
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      My fry are about 3 to 4 days older than yours, I have some that look like yours in my 300 gal tank. The tiny ones seem to like spirulina powder, and powdered Tetra Gold fish flakes and I think the bigger ones got bigger by eating more decapsulated brine shrimp eggs.

      The fry in my 600 gal tank go into a frenzy when I feed them unlike the fry in the 300 gal tank that have less surface area, but same amount of water. Furthermore, the water in the 600 gallon tank receives more direct sun light, so the warmer water and increased surface area has definitely something to do with their increased appetite.
      Last edited by Roger; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:55 AM.

    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
      My fry are about 3 to 4 days older than yours, I have some that look like yours in my 300 gal tank. The tiny ones seem to like spirulina powder, and powdered Tetra Gold fish flakes and I think the bigger ones got bigger by eating more decapsulated brine shrimp eggs.

      The fry in my 600 gal tank go into a frenzy when I feed them unlike the fry in the 300 gal tank that have less surface area, but same amount of water. Furthermore, the water in the 600 gallon tank receives more direct sun light, so the warmer water and increased surface area has definitely something to do with their increased appetite.
      I'm fascinated that your fry "go into a frenzy" when you feed them. I've never experienced that in any size tank at any temperature (all my tanks are heated). Right now I have about 50 in a 800 tank and they still just hang out in the bottom, in the same corner ( about 75 deg now)

      If you find the secret, please post it.

    4. #24
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      Matt - Thanks for the ongoing input. I have been using hose attachment filter that filters out chloramine, among other things, knowing that I have pretty hard water from my tap. I was expecting some bigger ones to eat smaller ones, but I don't think the big ones are even big enough yet to eat the smaller ones lol

      Roger - Your experience is some very useful info. I have switched from feeding them egg yolk to breeding baby brine shrimp and they seem to love that. I also like that they are red, so I can see easier that their bellies are full. Similar to your bigger tank, i can see them chasing around the brine shrimp. I also noticed that the egg yolk, as good as it may have been for their bellies, it caused lots of issues with the uneaten amount settling like carpet across the tank.

      I think getting away from yolk, things are starting to get better, a LOT less cleaning needed. Similar to Roger, I significantly slowed down my hose water refill speed. I think all these things acting together were a big part of my problem. In hindsight, I think I was so concerned with adequate aeration that I the water current was too strong because there were 1 or 2 areas in the tank where the fry were just tumbling any time they swam by.
      Last edited by HAMMATRON; 4 Weeks Ago at 01:17 PM.

    5. #25
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      Hammatron, I also took out two air stone from the center to give them a calm place to rest. I put the two air stones in my trash bin bio filter.

      I did a lot of salt water shore fishing before, and one of the baits I use to catch is a small 3 to 4 inch goat fish that kind of resemble koi. It has two small whiskers on the side of its mouth. We are allowed to catch 50 of them per day, so I store them in a salt water tank at home and use them to catch bigger fish which feed early in the morning and late evenings. Anyway, if the aeration in the tank is too strong, the goat fish will eventually become crazy and die. They spin around and swim funny before they die.
      Last edited by Roger; 4 Weeks Ago at 05:46 PM.

    6. #26
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      I'll have to use that as a 'good to know' for next year, if I attempt to do this again, among all the other things I'm learning along the way. Although the quantities have dropped significantly, all the swimming fish are at least big enough now to handle it and are no longer tumbling around. There is about an 8" section at one end of the tank that all the smaller ones huddle around that seems to be a calm spot.

      Would be nice if the weather was conducive to keep them outside in this 1,200gal temporary pool i have, but even though we're at 80+ degrees during the day today, it still drops to 55 at night. I've attempted to put some in a smaller outdoor pond, but they don't make it.

    7. #27
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      Quick update @ 28 days after spawning

      -Population seems to be steady. I would estimate just under 1000 fish currently.
      -Bigger ones are noticeably larger than the runts. There are also a couple monsters in there that are significantly larger and more developed than the rest (pic below of 1)
      -Small front pond is still too cold at night to move fish out, but tested a few nights with the ~1,200gal back yard pond and they did fine, so I moved about 50-60 back there. They would either get eaten by my big fish, or they would get sucked down the bottom drain, so for the time being, they are living in the top half of my 55gal Birdman Sand/Gravel filter :P

      The Big Guy
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      Small front pond (~200-250gal) - pic from when the spawning ropes were in there
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      Back Pond - Just did a big re-build of this pond in Feb/Mar to double the volume, so it's still a mess and needs some finishing, but lots more room to swim.
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    8. #28
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      Welp, it is official, there is some tobi action going on. Woke up this morning and found one of the larger fry with another one in its mouth. I was running late for work and didn't have a chance to figure out a way to separate the larger ones, so it looks like I have some work to do when I get home tonight. Hopefully they aren't TOO hungry and don't end up eating too many smaller fry while I'm at work. I fed a lot more food this morning in hopes it will tide them over for 12 or so hours...

    9. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by HAMMATRON View Post
      Welp, it is official, there is some tobi action going on. Woke up this morning and found one of the larger fry with another one in its mouth. I was running late for work and didn't have a chance to figure out a way to separate the larger ones, so it looks like I have some work to do when I get home tonight. Hopefully they aren't TOO hungry and don't end up eating too many smaller fry while I'm at work. I fed a lot more food this morning in hopes it will tide them over for 12 or so hours...
      After hearing you and others talk about seeing tobi, and knowing that my fry are just a little younger than yours, I got to wondering if there were any monsters-in-the-making down in all that green water I have. So I ran an adult koi net through there 3 or 4 times, but did not see any that were not small enough to slip through the net. So no tobi yet, unless they were illusive enough to avoid the net, but I'll be watching.

    10. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      ... I ran an adult koi net through there 3 or 4 times, but did not see any that were not small enough to slip through the net....
      I still had to scoop mine out with a pretty fine net. A general goldfish type mesh would have worked, but i was worried it would damage fins of any small or regular-sized fry, so I used a really fine fry net.

      Ended up scooping out 8 fish, 3 of which were on the edge of worrisome or not. Also snagged one koi on the small end of 'average' sized for comparison. Used a 27gal storage tote from Home Depot for a temporary home until they're big enough to survive outside... or until our weather makes up its mind and stays warm for more than 12hrs at a time.

      Before I made it home, I had a work event that led me to watching the Mariners (beat KC 8-2) from a suite
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      4 bigger ones, 1 iffy fella and the "average" one for comparison
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      Another one, different angle, 7 of the 8
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      2 from the side... the one that looks like a rainbow trout participated in the spawning was the one I caught with a runt in his mouth this morning...
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      The tank and storage tote temporary home
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      About 80% of the remaining fry. rest are either at the other end or picking scraps from the tank floor. And yes... i'm very aware of how not-clear the water and glass are
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      Last edited by HAMMATRON; 3 Weeks Ago at 12:43 AM.

    11. #31
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      Hammatron, my back is sore. Raising fry is kind of hard work. Keep up the good work. Once their stomach fills up, they should keep growing.

    12. #32
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      I just found and ordered these pellets on Amazon...........Its advertised as 1/32 inch floating with two types growth (green) or color up (red). I'm planning to switch over when they big enough, maybe three month old can handle it.

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      Last edited by Roger; 3 Weeks Ago at 12:56 AM.

    13. #33
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      Glad you're feeling my pain! I figured I would pick up this 150gal tank, cycle the water for ~5mo with some smaller koi, then transfer the eggs and it would be hands-off......... NOT the case! haha

      I'm currently hatching brine shrimp every ~24 hrs and feeding in the evening (the love it and go crazy chasing them around), and in the morning I am feeding a mix of cheap tetra growth sticks with high protein blue ridge growth, which i have ground up into a powder.

      I can't wait for the day they can eat actual fish food! I will look into those pellets. In the "pre-teen years", I may look into using regular goldfish flakes

    14. #34
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      Quote Originally Posted by HAMMATRON View Post
      ... 4 bigger ones, 1 iffy fella and the "average" one for comparison ...
      Big difference. Glad you got those separated.

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      Random photo - from the top, appears to be 50/50 split of dark/yellow. Actual is probably only 15% dark
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    16. #36
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      Nothing too exciting, but I netted one of my bigger Tobies today, only about 1in long after a month and a week from hatching. Have about 15 at this size, been picking them out of the main tank and plopping them into their own private storage tote resort.

      Still no culling, growing pretty slowly and un-separated tobies have apparently eaten runts fast enough to keep numbers low enough for me to keep all so far.

      Looks like it is going to be doitsu
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      Thicc fella... tail tube looking pretty narrow, but o well.
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      Some of the smaller ones, huddled in the corner while refilling during water change
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    17. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by HAMMATRON View Post
      … un-separated tobies have apparently eaten runts fast enough to keep numbers low enough for me to keep all so far. ...
      That's probably just as well. I don't mind if the tiny wispy ones wind up as food for the larger ones that have a chance to amount to something. Just as long at the larger ones don't get big enough to start eating the ones that are not so tiny and wispy. That can sure happen if you don't watch em. One year, I just let it go for a few weeks (not recommended). When they were 54 days old, I netted out a 5.5" soragoi that had probably eaten 1000 others.

    18. #38
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      Well.... first 'big' mistake happened today. Did a water change, not because it was needed, but because i wanted to use tank water to fill a new outside pool that I plan on moving the fish out to. Multitasking with some BBQing while adding water to the tank as it was simultaneously draining, I didn't realize it was pumping in some pretty hot water.
      Realized this when I came inside and saw 90% of the fish huddled to the far left 10% of the tank. Immediately turned off the hot water line and got it leveled back down to a tank temperature of 75..... but 5hrs later, and i have quite a bit (probably 5%) of fish in the process of dying. Most just tumbling around, with the occasional flick of the tail.

      Luckily they are all on the smaller side. I don't have any runts left, as the bigger fish have eaten them all. Maybe it's a blessing in disguise to thin them out? Maybe they'll turn into food for the bigger ones? Who knows. Either way.... oops! lol

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    19. #39
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      So sorry. Hopefully only the weakest will be weeded out.
      --Steve
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      "I know what I have to do now. I got to keep breathing. Because tomorrow the sun will rise.
      Who knows what the tide could bring." --Tom Hanks in Cast Away

    20. #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      So sorry. Hopefully only the weakest will be weeded out.
      I think so! I mean, they are all significantly smaller than the rest. Only down-side is a few looked like they were developing some fun patterns. But oh well... I only have about 500 gallons available for baby fish, so maybe the smaller qty will help the rest thrive

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