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    Thread: Applied Tricide Neo and Quarantined

    1. #1
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      Applied Tricide Neo and Quarantined

      I applied Tricide Neo to some nasty looking ulcers on 2 fish, using the qtip/paste method.

      I then put them into a 200 gallon quarantine tank, with filters running.

      Questions:

      1. Do I just wait and watch and observe to make sure their sores are all gone before returning to the big pond? (one of them, overnight, looked significantly better, just did treatment on my 15-year old Koi tonight). Should I re-treat a second course? How will I know whether to and when?

      2. Is there any other treatment I should be providing to get them back to health?

      3. How will I know if they are all better, when they get their appetite back?

      4. I think I should do a course of Proform C & then Prazi in the quarantine tank: should I wait until the sick fish are better or ok to do now?

      Thank you!!
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      Last edited by Winscene; 05-10-2019 at 09:18 PM.

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    2. #2
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      (For future reference, it's best to continue on the same thread rather than start a new one. This helps us to know the back story w/o having to flip back and forth. For example, I have no idea if you have done parasite treatment already and have to hunt down your other post lol)

      I sure am glad you caught these two. Those are some significant ulcers and infection! Well done.

      Right now, I personally would not medicate. I would focus on pristine water quality in the QT. Do you have mature filtration on the QT? If not, you will need to make sure you do frequent water changes and definitely use an ammonia binder (ie seachem prime or safe) every 48 hrs or as directed if another brand.

      Treat one time and wait to see if healing is happening. DO NOT FEED.

      I think the first fish may be doing the doitsu version of pineconing (it has no scales so you can't see it) and that's why it looks so bloated.

      RichToyBox - can you please advise on this and what salt level, if you think it's appropriate?
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member

    3. #3
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      Thank you for the feedback re keeping the same string.

      I have two small filters running and will add a third pump returning waterfall-like water in the QT for additional aeration, and will do water changes every 48 hours, as you've said.

      The blue fish already shows amazing progress in the sore-area coloration.

      I have not done Proform C/Prazi in the main pond yet, because I was keeping the water low to get out the 15 year old. I can now start that process on the main pond.

    4. #4
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      I don't think that I am seeing any signs of dropsy on the few scales that the doitsu has, but if the swelling is due to water flowing into the fish through the ulcers faster than the kidneys can remove it, ie, dropsy, then salting to 0.8% will not hurt, and can help the kidneys to handle the inflow. Right now the ulcer is a break in the membrane known as skin which helps to keep the fish blood salinity at about 0.9% while the pond is at zero, and due to osmotic pressure that breach allows water to flow into the fish over hydrating the system. As soon as a white film has formed over the ulcer, that is an indication that the skin is starting to reform and act as that membrane again and the salinity can be reduced.

      I would hold off on treating the pond for parasites until these fish are back in the pond, or plan to treat twice. I don't like treating the QT for parasites as the volume is small and errors can be very large relatively. Measuring cups need to be replaced with syringes for measurements to have relative values of accuracy of measurement.
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      Hadn't thought of the difficulty measuring treatment in 200-300 gallon QT.

      I will send updated pictures in a day or two re next steps.

      Thank you!!

    6. #6
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      Update on two two sick koi put in QT last weekend:

      -- when pulled from main pond, I treated both with Tricide Neo, paste/qtip method for 5 mins under anesthesia, put into QT (QT has 300 gallons, 3 mag drive pumps w filters running, had some ammonia (.50), now down to zero, using Prime, salt around .15, 25% water change/48 hrs)
      -- Also treated the Bekko 2 x a day, for 2 days (total of 4 additional treatments) of pull/spray with TN/put back in QT after 3-5 mins. Did this a few days ago, so the pictures you see are from yesterday. A little improvement in the middle of the big sore. He acts normally
      -- Also installed a heater 3 days ago in QT and got the temperature up to 75 degrees (was 60 degrees last weekend)
      -- The blueish-colored fish immediately stabilized last weekend, after TN, sores looked to be healing over, then in last two days sores have turned red again.

      Also did Proform C/Prazi 3-day treatment in 7,400 gal pond with main population of koi.

      Any suggestions as to what I should do next to speed their recovery in QT? Medicine directly into the water? Pull and re-treat with TN?

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      Last edited by Winscene; 05-30-2019 at 08:43 AM.

    7. #7
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      Lost 6 mature Koi thus far--likely there will be two more this week--and I still do not know what is happening in my pond.

      Has been going on for a month or so. Applied Tricide Neo to several sick fish with ulcers--they've all died.

      I've done Proform C/Prazi combination to main pond and QT -- did a second dosage of the Prazi (have since purchased FlukeM medication, but have not used it yet, as I have been in the middle of PrC/Prazi treatments), and fish are still dying.

      See the photo of the one I pulled out of the pond today. They seem to turn pinkish from the inside and then seize up. Not pretty.

      Before I lose all of my koi, any suggestions as to what has attacked my pond and QT?
      Last edited by Winscene; 05-28-2019 at 10:10 PM.

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      Looking at all the information you have posted, I can't find test results for the water. Some of this could be due to ammonia, or extremes of pH. Can you post the following numbers, preferably with drop type test kits like API, for ammonia, nitrite, pH morning and evening, KH, and temperature. These would be very helpful.
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    9. #9
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      Main pond water quality numbers have always been excellent, as I oversized my filter requirements with a 6.0 bead filter with mixed media. In four years of weekly testing, I've never had a reading for Ammonia, NO2 or NO3. Had 14 Koi, various sizes & 12 goldfish in approx. 7,400 gallons.

      Latest #s (main pond):
      PH (using meter): 8.35 (PM)
      PH (using API): 8.40 (PM)
      PH (using meter): 8.25 (AM)
      Temp: 73.2
      Salt: .04
      KH: 11 - 196.9
      GH: 5 - 89.5
      NO2: 0
      Ammonia: 0
      NO3: 0

      System:
      Pond size: 7,400 gallons (approx)
      Filter: Motion Bead Filter 6.0, mixed media
      Pump: Artisan II High Head – ½ HP
      UV Filters: 2 – Evo 55 Watt
      Aquasieve II
      Air pump: LA80-Medo Linear Compressor 3.0 cfm
      Rhino II Bottom Drain w air diffuser
      3 - Side-wall TPRs

      Waterfall Line (9 months):
      Blue Eco 320 var. speed
      Helix Skimmer w Green & Blue Matala
      UV Filter: 1 – Evo 55 Watt
      Atlantic Fastfalls 26" Spillway Weir

      Weekly: Back Wash, approx. 7% water change, water test (normal schedule)
      Water Turnover 9 Months: 1 ½ hrs
      Water Turnover Dec-Feb: 1 hr, 40 mins

      Quarantine Tank (QT)
      6’ Round, 300-420 gallons, shaded (in shed)
      Pumps: 3 – Pondmaster 7 (700gph)
      2 – 12” square media pads
      DIY waterfall
      2 – 12” air stones with air pump
      1 – fluorescent light; 1 – grow light on timer
      Water Turnover: between 4 - 6 x per hour
      Water Heater: 70 degrees

      When I did Proform C/Prazi regimen (Prazi a second time, 10 days later), I turned off UVs and lowered salt level down (normally keep salt approx. .08, but lowered for treatment)

      If I understand correctly, the PrC/Prazi is for a parasite shotgun approach. What if something else is going on, like bacterial infection?
      Last edited by Winscene; 05-30-2019 at 08:48 AM.

    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by Winscene View Post
      I applied Tricide Neo to some nasty looking ulcers on 2 fish, using the qtip/paste method.

      I then put them into a 200 gallon quarantine tank, with filters running.

      Questions:

      1. Do I just wait and watch and observe to make sure their sores are all gone before returning to the big pond? (one of them, overnight, looked significantly better, just did treatment on my 15-year old Koi tonight). Should I re-treat a second course? How will I know whether to and when?

      2. Is there any other treatment I should be providing to get them back to health?

      3. How will I know if they are all better, when they get their appetite back?

      4. I think I should do a course of Proform C & then Prazi in the quarantine tank: should I wait until the sick fish are better or ok to do now?

      Thank you!!
      If you do treatments in your QT, but not your pond, it will not resolve the issue.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

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    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by Winscene View Post
      Update on two two sick koi put in QT last weekend:

      -- when pulled from main pond, I treated both with Tricide Neo, paste/qtip method for 5 mins under anesthesia, put into QT (QT has 300 gallons, 3 mag drive pumps w filters running, had some ammonia (.50), now down to zero, using Prime, salt around .15, 25% water change/48 hrs)
      -- Also treated the Bekko 2 x a day, for 2 days (total of 4 additional treatments) of pull/spray with TN/put back in QT after 3-5 mins. Did this a few days ago, so the pictures you see are from yesterday. A little improvement in the middle of the big sore. He acts normally
      -- Also installed a heater 3 days ago in QT and got the temperature up to 75 degrees (was 60 degrees last weekend)
      -- The blueish-colored fish immediately stabilized last weekend, after TN, sores looked to be healing over, then in last two days sores have turned red again.

      Also did Proform C/Prazi 3-day treatment in 7,400 gal pond with main population of koi.

      Any suggestions as to what I should do next to speed their recovery in QT? Medicine directly into the water? Pull and re-treat with TN?

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      Looks like Columnaris which is very difficult to treat. The best treatment we have found is 74 degree water, 0.6% salt and 100mg oxolinic acid per 250 gallons of water. If you do not meet all of these requirements then it won't work. The pond could be treated too but it would probably be very difficult for you to heat the water. The treatments we use have been given to us by breeders in Japan. They work. The problem is that most ponds are too dirty for the medication to not be absorbed by excess organic matter.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    12. #12
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      Can you please take a look at the gills on the Koi as well. Do this when they die and before they die.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    13. #13
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      I did PrC/Prazi treatments to both pond and QT. Fish in both acting in similar ways, deteriorating/dying at relatively the same pace in both places.

      Ok, will pay more attention to gills. I have not noticed anything unusual, but I am not experienced enough to tell.

      Since the outbreak, I have observed: sores, ulcers (variety of locations on fish: left side, right side near mouth, straight-ahead near mouth & nose top of fins). This is depending on fish. One fish died with no outward sign as to why, though stomach may have been somewhat larger than normal. At least two koi looked like they were turning pinkish, then die 1 or 2 days later.

      Pond is very clean (very little organic matter) owing to no gravel, robust bottom drain, sloped bottom, good circulation and 3 TPRs.

      The pond briefly got up to 78 degrees, but dropped back down because of rain and cool spring. I can get it up to .6 salt. Would have to research getting the acid.

      Is it worth it to start raising salt level to .6 (I assume you do not mean .06)?
      Last edited by Winscene; 05-30-2019 at 02:38 PM.

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      I could treat the QT (salt, oxolinic acid, and temp) with one sick fish and see if it works.

    15. #15
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      What am I looking for re gills? See pictures of 2 fish that subsequently died, at the top of my thread. Their gills are visible and--to me--look normal, but maybe they're not.
      Last edited by Winscene; 05-30-2019 at 02:48 PM.

    16. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by Winscene View Post
      What am I looking for re gills? See pictures of 2 fish that subsequently died, at the top of my thread. Their gills are visible and--to me--look normal, but maybe they're not.
      There are no pictures on this thread that shows the gills. Gill plates yes, but no the gills. I am attaching a picture of gills.
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      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    17. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by Winscene View Post
      I could treat the QT (salt, oxolinic acid, and temp) with one sick fish and see if it works.
      If you do this then the fish will only get sick and die again when you put it back in your pond because you did not treat the pond.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    18. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by Winscene View Post
      I did PrC/Prazi treatments to both pond and QT. Fish in both acting in similar ways, deteriorating/dying at relatively the same pace in both places.

      Ok, will pay more attention to gills. I have not noticed anything unusual, but I am not experienced enough to tell.

      Since the outbreak, I have observed: sores, ulcers (variety of locations on fish: left side, right side near mouth, straight-ahead near mouth & nose top of fins). This is depending on fish. One fish died with no outward sign as to why, though stomach may have been somewhat larger than normal. At least two koi looked like they were turning pinkish, then die 1 or 2 days later.

      Pond is very clean (very little organic matter) owing to no gravel, robust bottom drain, sloped bottom, good circulation and 3 TPRs.

      The pond briefly got up to 78 degrees, but dropped back down because of rain and cool spring. I can get it up to .6 salt. Would have to research getting the acid.

      Is it worth it to start raising salt level to .6 (I assume you do not mean .06)?
      Again, ProformC and Praziquantel will do nothing here as those are for parasites. You have a bacterial infection that looks to be Columnaris. The reason the fish are acting the same in both places is because the bacteria is on them and nothing you have done will get rid of it.

      Please don’t take this the wrong way but your pond is not clean. If it were you would not be having this issue. I have been there. The problem is that clear water does not mean it is healthy water and this is a common misconception.

      Yes, you need 0.6% salt and, for your pond it means 370 lbs. I do not think it would be worth trying this unless you can get the temperature as close to 74 and put in the oxolinic acid. If you PM me your address I can send you the proper dose for your pond and QT. It would only be 3 grams for your pond.

      I would clean everything and do a water change before doing this.
      The two Koi that got pinkish and died is because they died from a systemic infection. By the time you see it outwardly their insides are ruined.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

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