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    Thread: 4000g Concrete Build - In progress

    1. #1
      scratanut is offline Junior Member
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      4000g Concrete Build - In progress

      Hi guys,

      New member here, really excited to share my first proper pond build. I have been a silent spectator on this forum for a while now and having gathered a bit of knowhow I did civil work my self.
      I am Hamza from India, been an avid aquarist and aquascaper for a decade now.

      I have lots of basic ponding questions which am trying to find on the forum, I may ask some doubts here ask I progress with this build. I wish I had started this earlier but things kept me occupied as I started this pond.

      WhatI intend this pond to be...
      Predominantly a koi pond with maybe a few other compatible mates like sturgeons and Himalayan mahseer. Eventually I will be happy with no more than 15-18 fish in this system once they reach a decent size, not a fan of overstocked ponds/aquariums.

      dimensions - 17ft x 8ft x 4ft(at BD), edges of pond bottom are raised up by 1foot.
      The pond is designed with 2x 3in bottom drains.
      Since pond equipment is rather expensive here and not readily available with barely any options, I have opted for a sump filter combined with a plant filter.

      Sump tank is around 9ft x 2.5ft x 3ft
      sump divided into 4 sections
      first section is solid separator incorporating radial flow setup
      second section will have custom made bottle brushes to mechanically filter out finer partlices that pass through radial flow section.
      3 section will have k1 moving bed bio media - the section is around 2.5ftx20inx3ft, I reckon it would take 60-80liters of k1
      the forth section is to house pump.

      lastly the water is transferred up to the plant filter that sits less than 2m above the sump with 9ft x 4ft of surface area, lots of bog plants in pots will be planted in baskets filled with aquaponic clay balls.

      The filtration is sort of a hybrid setup between wetland setup and conventional filter.

      The work is still in progress, sorry for the crappy pictures.
      Civil work is done, its full reinforced concrete with 12in base and 8in sides
      Once the Stone cladding is done outside and on patio beside it. the pond will be coated with foodgrade epoxy.

      The pond will be aerated in 4 locations, 2 discs on bottom drains, one in the sump for k1, one under the plants.

      For pump selection I am thinking of using Sunsun CEF-22000 or cef 26000, or similar powered submersible pump. you can suggest something better.
      A couple of reasons I am opting for these pumps.
      1- the pump at most will push the water through 6ft of pipe(5ívertically), there will be barely any drop of pressure
      2-its a gravity fed system
      3-I find submersible oumps to be energy efficient and silent forpondsthis size.


      A couple of questions I have for now;
      1-What color shouldI opt for epoxy? Dark algae green would look good for koi?
      2-How much k1 media can I have in approximately 250-300liters of sump section.
      3-Please suggest an air pump/aerator for my application

      Please let me know your thoughts on this....
      Attached Images Attached Images      

    2. #2
      pondfishguy is offline Senior Member
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      2-How much k1 media can I have in approximately 250-300liters of sump section.

      A - About 50% of the sump volume

      3-Please suggest an air pump/aerator for my application

      A - 40 lpm for your K1, 20 lpm for each bottom drain

    3. #3
      icu2's Avatar
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      Welcome and thanks for joining Koiphen!
      Looks like a great design. I like black for the ponds color. The fish look nice against
      it and when algae starts growing on the sides it seems to look better than lighter colors.


      Enjoy the forum!
      --Steve
      Find more about Weather in Poulsbo, WA

      "I know what I have to do now. I got to keep breathing. Because tomorrow the sun will rise.
      Who knows what the tide could bring." --Tom Hanks in Cast Away

    4. #4
      Lue is online now Member
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      Question: How are you preventing the k1 not to flow to the other chamber? Because I see the diagram open.

    5. #5
      scratanut is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by pondfishguy View Post
      2-How much k1 media can I have in approximately 250-300liters of sump section.

      A - About 50% of the sump volume
      50% of the section volume, i.e., 150liters of it approx?

      Quote Originally Posted by pondfishguy View Post

      3-Please suggest an air pump/aerator for my application

      A - 40 lpm for your K1, 20 lpm for each bottom drain
      Can I have all these supplied from one single pump of 80-100lpm?

      Thanks for the help mate!

      Question: How are you preventing the k1 not to flow to the other chamber? Because I see the diagram open.
      Good question, I dint update the drawing as it as been executed on site. Initially my plan was to use japanese mat when I was working on that 3d model. I have raised the baffle above water level by 3in and drilled 3 holed for 3in pipes with elbows that will extend to the surface and perforated or with mesh sections to stop K1 from passing through.

      Welcome and thanks for joining Koiphen!
      Looks like a great design. I like black for the ponds color. The fish look nice against
      it and when algae starts growing on the sides it seems to look better than lighter colors.


      Enjoy the forum!
      Thanks for the hearty welcome mate! And thanks for complementing the design.

      I quite like the black as well, but no one in my family approves dark water body. I was finding it hard to convince them so I was looking for other tad lighter options that bring out koi colors.

      _________________________________________

      Apart from all details listed in my previous post, I forgot to mention skimmer.

      Since skimmers dont work well when attached to gravity fed drain system, what I did is made a separate chamber in an accidental/unintended void between pond and the sump filter. This will be a closed chamber disconned from rest of the filter. This chamber houses a separate submersible pump with around 5000lph connected to a return pipe on other side of the pond with a UV sterlizer in between. I thought putting UV on skimmer would give a higher dwell time to water making it more effective in longer run.

      What sized UV would be good for this setup?

    6. #6
      DragonFireSG is offline Senior Member
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      This system is fairly close to what medicine2 from Malaysia did.

      As I recall it, he had the main filter output going into the shower, and also airlifts increasing flow through the filter for very low energy input.

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...ond-build-plan


      Some comments to add:

      1. Instead of K1, try Mutag BioChip 25 or BioChip 30 for your MBBR if you can get your hands on it. It is has far more surface area vs K1, and I think it is available in India. This is the stuff many municipal waterworks use for sewage treatment.

      https://www.koinet.net/j/index.php/1...aldnes-k1.html

      2. Nature has a tendency to choose black, or a green so dark it is almost black in the end It is your objective to grow out those living jewels we call koi to provide the contrast you want.

    7. #7
      Lue is online now Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by scratanut View Post
      50% of the section volume, i.e., 150liters of it approx?



      Can I have all these supplied from one single pump of 80-100lpm?

      Thanks for the help mate!



      Good question, I dint update the drawing as it as been executed on site. Initially my plan was to use japanese mat when I was working on that 3d model. I have raised the baffle above water level by 3in and drilled 3 holed for 3in pipes with elbows that will extend to the surface and perforated or with mesh sections to stop K1 from passing through.



      Thanks for the hearty welcome mate! And thanks for complementing the design.

      I quite like the black as well, but no one in my family approves dark water body. I was finding it hard to convince them so I was looking for other tad lighter options that bring out koi colors.

      _________________________________________

      Apart from all details listed in my previous post, I forgot to mention skimmer.

      Since skimmers dont work well when attached to gravity fed drain system, what I did is made a separate chamber in an accidental/unintended void between pond and the sump filter. This will be a closed chamber disconned from rest of the filter. This chamber houses a separate submersible pump with around 5000lph connected to a return pipe on other side of the pond with a UV sterlizer in between. I thought putting UV on skimmer would give a higher dwell time to water making it more effective in longer run.

      What sized UV would be good for this setup?
      If u get a small uv; u might have to do a little by passing of your water flow to slower. Personally for me, I would get one that can handle your flow or a little stronger (connecting directly in line), so as algae particles goes thru; it will be able to kill it. Otherwise, if the is too fast, everything just goes thru and the uv light doesn't do its job.

    8. #8
      Lue is online now Member
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      Name:  20190412_073249.jpg
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      My pond is only 2 years old. It is kind of similar to yours. 3 chambers- 6ftx6ft hexagon filter, 3ftx6ft matala mat, and 3ftx6ft Japanese mat

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      1st chamber
      Two 4 in bottom drain that water comes up. Water passes thru the brushes that slow it down to radial flow. The green matala mat helps catch debris and slow water down to the two k1 static filters. Reason for two barrels is that it takes twice the amount to plug it up.

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      2nd chamber
      First 3 mats are completely stack up/flush to the bottom. Water goes across thru them. In case it get dirty, these 3 is removed and clean out versus cleaning the whole chamber. Then, it divided into 3 chambers with different grades of mats. Up flow on the first one, down flow on 2nd one, then up flow on last one.

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      3rd chamber
      There is 2 mats stacked up/flushed to the bottom as well; water running horizontal. Between this mat and the Japanese mat is a divider that allows water to go under and come up on Japanese mat.

      I just redone the filters this December. It's running for 4 months now and it's working fine. The only filter chamber I clean weekly or biweekly is the first chamber. Flush and spray down.

    9. #9
      Lue is online now Member
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      The only difference is that I use mats instead of k1.

    10. #10
      Lue is online now Member
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      The problem I have on my filter was that my pump pumps out 7k gph and I only have a 4 in pipe from chamber to chamber restricting the flow. So, make sure those 3x 3 in pipes that you are installing doesn't restrict the water as you put the mesh on.

      For some reason, I raise the water up 2 inches in the pond and the pressure of the water was strong enough for my system to work.

    11. #11
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      How do you clean your chambers? Pressure washer?

    12. #12
      scratanut is offline Junior Member
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      Heres an update on 3d design, sorry for the watermark.

      Name:  ls1.jpg
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      How do you clean your chambers? Pressure washer?
      All the chambers have bottom drain outlets installed, but I will need an external sludge pump to flush all debris and solids as the water level is barely over a foot above ground level. Any suggestions for the type of pump are welcome.

      Quote Originally Posted by Lue View Post
      Name:  20190412_073249.jpg
Views: 316
Size:  149.6 KB

      My pond is only 2 years old. It is kind of similar to yours. 3 chambers- 6ftx6ft hexagon filter, 3ftx6ft matala mat, and 3ftx6ft Japanese mat

      Name:  20190412_072343.jpg
Views: 316
Size:  135.4 KB

      1st chamber
      Two 4 in bottom drain that water comes up. Water passes thru the brushes that slow it down to radial flow. The green matala mat helps catch debris and slow water down to the two k1 static filters. Reason for two barrels is that it takes twice the amount to plug it up.

      Name:  20190412_072353.jpg
Views: 316
Size:  128.2 KB

      2nd chamber
      First 3 mats are completely stack up/flush to the bottom. Water goes across thru them. In case it get dirty, these 3 is removed and clean out versus cleaning the whole chamber. Then, it divided into 3 chambers with different grades of mats. Up flow on the first one, down flow on 2nd one, then up flow on last one.

      Name:  20190412_072359.jpg
Views: 315
Size:  149.4 KB

      3rd chamber
      There is 2 mats stacked up/flushed to the bottom as well; water running horizontal. Between this mat and the Japanese mat is a divider that allows water to go under and come up on Japanese mat.

      I just redone the filters this December. It's running for 4 months now and it's working fine. The only filter chamber I clean weekly or biweekly is the first chamber. Flush and spray down.
      Thanks for the pictures and elaborate writeup, really appreciate your inputs!

      Initially I wanted only a good solid separator/mechanical filter, I was thinking of keeping plant/bog section a lil more extensive loaded with lots of bog plants.
      But later I thought a bed full of pea gravel would be too much of a mess to handle, so I planned to stack up a few layers of draincells over which the plant baskets will be tightly stacked with some aquaponic clay balls restricted only to the baskets enabling me to easily move them around for maintenance and flushing the entire system.

      Do you think just the brushes will be enough or is it good to stack up a couple of japanese or matala mats for mechanical chamber along with brushes?

      The problem I have on my filter was that my pump pumps out 7k gph and I only have a 4 in pipe from chamber to chamber restricting the flow. So, make sure those 3x 3 in pipes that you are installing doesn't restrict the water as you put the mesh on.

      For some reason, I raise the water up 2 inches in the pond and the pressure of the water was strong enough for my system to work.
      I will try to find right sized mesh that neither restricts the flow nor partially suck in K1. If not, I will sit down to drill lots of holes on standard 3" PVC pipe.

    13. #13
      scratanut is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lue View Post
      If u get a small uv; u might have to do a little by passing of your water flow to slower. Personally for me, I would get one that can handle your flow or a little stronger (connecting directly in line), so as algae particles goes thru; it will be able to kill it. Otherwise, if the is too fast, everything just goes thru and the uv light doesn't do its job.
      Sorry I dint quite get what you are trying to say here.

      Do I size the UV according to skimmer return pump? Whats recommended UV output for a pond this size?

      Another doubt...As I mentioned I plan to use a pump around 5000lph flow rate, do you think it will be sufficient for the skimmer to operate?
      The concreting happened in a jiffy, I couldnt soure even a swimming pool skimmer for the job, so now I need to either buy something that fits directly onto a 2" pipe or maybe build one myself. Any good links to previous skimmer builds will really help.

      __________________________________________________ _______________________________

      Another question...I plan to use Sunsun CEF pump on this setup as its readily available here.

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      There are 3 options available to me
      CEF 20000 with a flowrate of 5200gph
      CEF 26000 7000gph
      CEF 30000 8000gph as mentioned on box

      or do I go for 2 of 10000/13500lph JTP series
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      Theres barely 1.5-2m of vertical height for water to travel through a 2in pipe. I dont know what will be the drop in pressure. Considering 2x 3" bottom drains I have what would be a good option out of the lot?
      Last edited by scratanut; 04-12-2019 at 06:27 PM.

    14. #14
      Lue is online now Member
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      Just use brushes, it's easier to clean. And allow more water to pass thru. Mats you have to pull out to rinse. Brushes, u can shake the off in the chamber. Blue and gray matala will get plug up. Black and green matala doesn't really filter. Therefore just use brushes. Preferable for blacknight green brushes, I find it work better than others.

      If I were you, try 1 roll of brushes in the radial filter section. It really help slow the water down to a slow flow.

    15. #15
      Lue is online now Member
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      Yes. Size your uv skimmer return pump if you want to install the uv to the skimmer pump.

      OR install to the main pump from your last chamber. Size the uv to it - between pump and to plant filter.

      It all depends on what pump you select. Get the uv to be strong enough for the water flow

    16. #16
      Lue is online now Member
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      In term of which pump:
      CEF 20000 will work but not a lot if water to plant filter waterfall.
      CEF 26000 -might work because you are using 3 3in pipe in each chambers. And hopefully, you don't run into the same situation as me were not enough water is travel to last chamber.

      Again skimmer pump also depends on the size of your two pipe coming from the pond. Pump too strong; not enough water to come pipe of skimmer chamber from pond.

    17. #17
      Lue is online now Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lue View Post
      Yes. Size your uv skimmer return pump if you want to install the uv to the skimmer pump.

      OR install to the main pump from your last chamber. Size the uv to it - between pump and to plant filter.

      It all depends on what pump you select. Get the uv to be strong enough for the water flow
      My bad... are you planning to put uv lights inside the chamber of water. If you are; I am not familiar of doing it that way.

      Just looking at the diagram; your uv should be connected to the last chamber of your filter. Either in the water or in line with the pipe going to plant filter.

    18. #18
      DragonFireSG is offline Senior Member
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      Here's a thought as to how the bog filter might be modified to support a static k1 fines polishing filter.

      That bog filter is something you will find extremely hard to clean. In the absence of a high performance fines filter, a lot of bad stuff is going to get trapped in there.

      Consider the attached.

      A section of the bog filter is partitioned off to create a fines filter using tightly packed K1 media. An air line is used to boil the media during cleaning, freeing trapped dirt. purge lines on the bottom allow denser mulm to be removed from the bottom.

      Name:  bogx.png
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      Incidentally you could probably put a long UV light tube down the vertical slotted pipe. All the filter water will pass that pipe, and the UV will keep the slots free from biofilm.
      Last edited by DragonFireSG; 04-13-2019 at 02:45 AM.

    19. #19
      scratanut is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lue View Post
      My bad... are you planning to put uv lights inside the chamber of water. If you are; I am not familiar of doing it that way.

      Just looking at the diagram; your uv should be connected to the last chamber of your filter. Either in the water or in line with the pipe going to plant filter.
      The max flow recommended for UV(available to me here) is not more than 8000lph for ideal water dwell time inside UV clarifier.

      The reason I dont want to put UV on the main filter is that my filter will run a single high flow submersible pump(around 6-7000gph). Dividing that line to control flow in UV clarifier will reduce water flow efficiency of the pump and further not all water passing through the filter will eventually go through UV anyway.

      Putting this on separate skimmer line, I can size up skimmer pump exactly to match UV.


      Quote Originally Posted by DragonFireSG View Post
      Here's a thought as to how the bog filter might be modified to support a static k1 fines polishing filter.

      That bog filter is something you will find extremely hard to clean. In the absence of a high performance fines filter, a lot of bad stuff is going to get trapped in there.

      Consider the attached.

      A section of the bog filter is partitioned off to create a fines filter using tightly packed K1 media. An air line is used to boil the media during cleaning, freeing trapped dirt. purge lines on the bottom allow denser mulm to be removed from the bottom.

      Name:  bogx.png
Views: 273
Size:  65.3 KB

      Incidentally you could probably put a long UV light tube down the vertical slotted pipe. All the filter water will pass that pipe, and the UV will keep the slots free from biofilm.
      Thats a great suggestion!

      I am going to dedicate a 60-90gallon section inside the plant filter, how much static media do i require for this volume?

      And can anyone suggest me the ideal media size for both moving bed media and static media?

      I wont be going for standard Kaldnes media available with aquarium.pond stores here.

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      The above pictures are of media used by intensive commercial aquaculture systems here and they cost a fraction of what a pond supplier would sell kaldnes media for. The black ones cost even less than white material(which as claimed by manufacturers is virgin polymer material).

      But I need to order the exact specs I require from what they are selling, thats why I need your suggestion for a good ideal size for both moving bed and static respectively.
      Attached Images Attached Images  

    20. #20
      scratanut is offline Junior Member
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      Another basic thing that I am unable to comprehend is the bottom drain flow rate.

      I have installed 2 basic 3" PVC elbows, does that make a difference in flowrate when compared to having a proper bottom drain?

      There are no bends in pipe apart from one elbow in the pond to other one in the sump, as shown in drawing below.

      Name:  pond-layout.jpg
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      The lengths of connecting pipe are 9ft and 14ft approximately. the pipe slopes down almost 6" towards the sump.

      P.S. Initial intended size of pond was somewhere close to 3000gallon(15ftx7ft), but later in order to avoid 2 boulders that came in 2 opposite corners of the bed, the pond size was increased to 17ftx8ft. Till the point I dint realized it. Will 3" drains hinder the flow rate now with larger volume of water?

      And for the pump I was going for the Grech CEF 26000 or CEF30000

      This is the performance chart wrt height and 3-4" output pipe, I will be reducing it to 2".
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      Name:  CEF-16000-CEF-22000-CEF-26000-CEF-32000-CEF-16000-large-power-fishpond-pump-Farm-circulating.jpg
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      What would be better suited to my pond for optimal performance considering the drain size?
      Last edited by scratanut; 04-18-2019 at 11:08 AM.

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