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  • Results 1 to 14 of 14

    Thread: HELP! I am desperate for thoughts on what to do. My fish are dying!!

    1. #1
      kehoops is offline Junior Member
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      Unhappy HELP! I am desperate for thoughts on what to do. My fish are dying!!

      EDITED TO ADD PHOTO


      Hello All-

      I am in some desperate need of help. I have contacted my pond professional but he is not able to get here until later this week and my koi are dying by the day!!! Here is the situation:

      In 2017, my husband and I purchased and restored a large ~90,000 gallon oval pond that was adjacent to our property. We used a professional company to do all the restoration and to get the pond water to the perfect levels for fish. This is a spring-fed pond, so we had to be careful to include the water quality of the spring water in our assessment of how to best balance the water quality. They finished their work in November 2017 and we added roughly 125 medium-sized koi to the pond in May of 2018 (~5-7"). In June of 2018, this same pond company called to ask if we would be willing to take an additional 30 koi from a customer of theirs who was taking down her pond (due to her age, she did not feel she could care for her pond anymore). We gladly took them and, much to our surprise, these fish were HUGE - some measuring 2-2.5 feet in length! We were told that these fish were all more than 20 years old and one was nearly 30 years old!

      We took very good care of our pond and our fish. We had monthly maintenance performed by the pond company and checked the water every week or so ourselves, just to make sure everything still looked good. We did not lose a SINGLE fish since May of 2018. That is, until 1/22/19. On the 22nd, I noticed one of the medium fish was floating. I did not think much of it because we just had a deep freeze the previous two days and I figured it just got too cold for that fish. I did not notice anything else strange. The next day, I found another medium fish floating and I was concerned and took a sample of water to the fish store to be tested (since I use strips, and they are not too reliable). The results came back startling - the water was highly acidic (pH was 6.3!). Also, Ammonia was high (.25). Also, I noticed the fish were hanging out under the water fall and the water fountain, which they NEVER did before.

      I called my pond expert and, based on the water readings I gave him, he told me to put in two bottles of concentrated ammonia remover (he had left us some bottles for emergencies) and to add 4 gallons of diluted baking soda to the pond, which we did. The next day, another fish died - but this time one of the big ones. I was heartbroken. Our pond guy had us take a water sample to a local store he trusts and they told us to add a gallon of cold water beneficial bacteria and one bottle of Vanish Plus dechlorinator Plus Stress Reducer and 4 more pounds of baking soda, which we did (our pond guy agreed with this). We lost two more medium fish the next day. We have continued to add diluted baking soda (4lbs) daily and have seen some improvement in the water quality, but still, the fish keep dying (lost 2 more today, including one of the big fish). Is there anything I can do to save the fish that start to struggle and anything I can do to prevent other fish from struggling. I used to enjoy going down to the pond everyday and now I just dread what I will see when I get there!!

      I am beside myself trying to help these fish and begging my pond guy to come sooner (he is on a job quite a distance away from my house at the moment). He told me to keep measuring and testing the water and to keep adding the baking soda daily to get that pH up to 7.5, very slowly. If anyone has ideas or suggestions for what I might try, please share. Here is some of the data on the water quality and the pond itself:

      Current pH: ~6.7 using drops and 7.0 using a test strip. Starting pH: 6.3 using a professional digital meter
      Current Ammonia: ~.10 using drops. Starting Ammonia: .25 using drops
      Current Nitrite: 0 using drops and .5 using a test strip. Starting Nitrite: 0
      Current Phosphate: .5 using drops. Starting Phosphate: .25 using drops
      Current GH: 180 using strip. Starting GH: 180 using strip
      Current KH: 50 using strip. Starting KH: 0 using strip
      Current Nitrate: ~30 using strip. Starting Nitrate: ~20 using strip

      * the size and stocking density of your pond: The pond holds about 90-95,000 gallons of water. I don't know the dimensions, but it is oval shaped and 3 feet deep at one end, with a drop to 8 feet at the other (where we have built a large cave for the fish to hide)

      * the type of filtration you have: We have 6 jets on the top surface of the pond sending water clockwise and 6 jets at the bottom of the pond sending water counterclockwise. We also have a waterfall and a water fountain that run 24/7

      * your maintenance routine: We have a professional company come out monthly for routine maintenance from March through November. In November, they 'shut down' the pond for to winterize it and got most of the leaves out. My husband and I also skim the pond to remove leaves every few days throughout the year.

      * the last time you performed maintenance: Full blown maintenance was the 2nd week in November (and everything was fine). I have added chemicals to the pond as specified above.

      * They also need to your water parameters, including the temperature: The last I checked a few days ago, the water temperature was 39 degrees.

      * The last time you added a new fish: we have not added fish since May of 2018

      THANK YOU!!!!!
      Attached Images Attached Images  
      Last edited by kehoops; 01-28-2019 at 04:32 PM. Reason: Adding a picture

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    2. #2
      ademink's Avatar
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      It sounds like you had a pH crash. You can't "undo" a crash but you can help the fish that are still alive. Their gills are basically burned so you will likely see more continue to die off. Your water is really cold at 39 degrees to continue aerating the way you are.

      I would continue to bind the ammonia. I'm not sure what product you are using (can you tell us?) but I would order a bucket of this asap if you can:
      https://www.amazon.com/Seachem-Conce...hem+safe+8+lbs

      It is expensive but SUPER concentrated and will last you a long time. You will dose every 48 hrs until ammonia is gone.

      They are gathering around the aerator/falls b/c they cannot breathe b/c their gills are damaged. Do you have a way to stop your fountain from being a fountain and turn it into just an aerator? I.e. underwater and "bubbling" (does that make sense?).

      Are you able to turn off the bottom jets and leave only the top ones? If so....I would personally:
      Turn off the bottom jets
      Turn off the fountain (assuming you can make/utilize it as an aerator)
      Leave on the top jets

      My pond is 44 degrees right now and is only 9000 gallons. Your pond is huge and shouldn't be as cold as it is. Shooting the water into the air and moving the body of water as much as you are is causing it to cool more.

      What is your pH ***late evening***? Check it in about an hour and tell us, please. I'm trying to see how much it is swinging. If it's swinging really high at night, you may be able to dump in a bunch of baking soda at once. If it is still low, you will need to continue to do it gradually.

      Hope I'm not rambling too nonsensically and you can track w/ all I'm saying!
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member

    3. #3
      ademink's Avatar
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      I wanted to add that you can throw the strips in trash. Your drip kit is the important one and - as you can see - the strips aren't accurate!

      Parameters you should continue monitoring:
      Ammonia
      Nitrite
      pH
      KH

      Don't worry about phosphate, GH or nitrAte.

      Also, GREAT JOB on your post. One of the best I have seen in terms of giving excellent information. Hang in there!
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member

    4. #4
      ademink's Avatar
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      Pic of what I mean by "aerator"
      Name:  aeration.jpg
Views: 220
Size:  7.1 KB
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member

    5. #5
      graybird's Avatar
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      Hi there, welcome to Koiphen and I'm sorry for your losses.

      More questions!

      First off, could you please measure the length and width of the pond? From the picture it doesn't look like 90k gallons, so it's good to be sure of the volume.

      Second, could you describe the appearance of the dead fish, or better yet post pics? Have you noticed any odd behavior?

      Third, could you test the pH and other parameters of your source (spring) water?

      Fourth, am I correct that the water is not actually filtered, just circulated? No skimmers or bottom drain?

      While you are waiting for help, I would not add anything to the water other than ammonia binder and baking soda.
      You can buy API drop test kits on Amazon; you need ammonia, pH, Kh, nitrite, and nitrate.
      Mary

    6. #6
      kehoops is offline Junior Member
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      Thank you so much for your response. I have some updated information. Here are some answers to your questions:

      Are you able to turn off the bottom jets and leave only the top ones? If so....I would personally:
      Turn off the bottom jets - ACCORDING TO MY HUSBAND, THIS WAS DONE BY OUR POND COMPANY AT THE YEAR END SHUT-DOWN. I WAS NOT AWARE.
      Turn off the fountain (assuming you can make/utilize it as an aerator) I DON'T THINK WE CAN MAKE IT AN AERATOR, BUT MY HUSBAND IS GOING TO CHECK.
      Leave on the top jets

      I just double checked the temp and it is 39 degrees. I have one of those floating thermometers that does not go very deep in the water and the water varies from 3 feet to 8 feet, so maybe the water at the top is colder since we just had a deep freeze a week ago (most of the top was frozen over except for near the water fall and fountain).

      I have checked the pH at various times of the day and written them all down. The pH at 9:00pm two nights ago read 6.9 on a digital device (I went out and bought one to improve accuracy). I will try it again later tonight when I get home form a meeting I have to run to shortly. From what I can tell, it has just been hovering at or below 7.0 since we started adding baking soda.

      The ammonia remover I used is called Microbe-Lift Ammonia Remover. Here is a link to a picture of the bottle. We used 32 oz.

      THANK YOU!

    7. #7
      kehoops is offline Junior Member
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      Thank you. I did a very rough measure of the length and width of the pond and got roughly 75 feet long and about 45 feet wide at the longest and widest points. This is oval shaped as you can see, so these measures will vary. Also, at is shallowest is 3 feet deep and at its deepest is 8 feet deep. We also have a small portion of the pond where we made a biochamber and the water here is about 10 inches deep.

      I did not look to closely at the dead fish and my husband disposed of them. However, sadly, it looks like we will have another one or two again by morning, so I can send you a picture then.

      I will test the Spring water tomorrow. I need someone help me lift the security gate to get to the spring. It has been pouring out water lately since we have had so much rain. I did do a test on it 4 days ago, but am not confident that I did it right, so don't want to give you those numbers, as they may be totally off.

      As for filtering, we have a pretty sophisticated bio-filter system. I could not really explain it all to you, but the pond company said it rates up there among the most thorough they have ever installed. Lots of filters that get cleaned every month and snails and plants (that are all dead or hibernating right now) and other lifeforms to keep the system balanced.

      The pond pro is talking about possibly doing an entire water switchout, and told me to think about it, but I am not sure what I am supposed to be thinking about? What do I know?

      THANKS!

    8. #8
      gray cat's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by kehoops View Post
      Thank you. I did a very rough measure of the length and width of the pond and got roughly 75 feet long and about 45 feet wide at the longest and widest points. This is oval shaped as you can see, so these measures will vary. Also, at is shallowest is 3 feet deep and at its deepest is 8 feet deep. We also have a small portion of the pond where we made a biochamber and the water here is about 10 inches deep.

      I did not look to closely at the dead fish and my husband disposed of them. However, sadly, it looks like we will have another one or two again by morning, so I can send you a picture then.

      I will test the Spring water tomorrow. I need someone help me lift the security gate to get to the spring. It has been pouring out water lately since we have had so much rain. I did do a test on it 4 days ago, but am not confident that I did it right, so don't want to give you those numbers, as they may be totally off.

      As for filtering, we have a pretty sophisticated bio-filter system. I could not really explain it all to you, but the pond company said it rates up there among the most thorough they have ever installed. Lots of filters that get cleaned every month and snails and plants (that are all dead or hibernating right now) and other lifeforms to keep the system balanced.

      The pond pro is talking about possibly doing an entire water switchout, and told me to think about it, but I am not sure what I am supposed to be thinking about? What do I know?

      THANKS!

      In your pic it looks muddy around your pond. On the left side of your pic it looks like the land is higher than your pond. Could there be some kind of run off into your pond with all of the rain you have had? Have your treated your ground with anything lately?
      Nancy



      Koiphen 2013 Koi Person of the Year!

    9. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by kehoops View Post
      Thank you. I did a very rough measure of the length and width of the pond and got roughly 75 feet long and about 45 feet wide at the longest and widest points. This is oval shaped as you can see, so these measures will vary. Also, at is shallowest is 3 feet deep and at its deepest is 8 feet deep. We also have a small portion of the pond where we made a biochamber and the water here is about 10 inches deep.

      I did not look to closely at the dead fish and my husband disposed of them. However, sadly, it looks like we will have another one or two again by morning, so I can send you a picture then.

      I will test the Spring water tomorrow. I need someone help me lift the security gate to get to the spring. It has been pouring out water lately since we have had so much rain. I did do a test on it 4 days ago, but am not confident that I did it right, so don't want to give you those numbers, as they may be totally off.

      As for filtering, we have a pretty sophisticated bio-filter system. I could not really explain it all to you, but the pond company said it rates up there among the most thorough they have ever installed. Lots of filters that get cleaned every month and snails and plants (that are all dead or hibernating right now) and other lifeforms to keep the system balanced.

      The pond pro is talking about possibly doing an entire water switchout, and told me to think about it, but I am not sure what I am supposed to be thinking about? What do I know?

      THANKS!
      1. I'd like to confirm that your pond is 90,000 gallons as you said. Your pond is ellipsoid, 75 ft long (A), 45 ft wide (B), and say 5.5 ft deep on average (3-8 feet deep). Its surface area is (1/2*A)*(1/2*B)*pi = 2297 ft2, with an average depth of 5.5 ft, Its volume is 12,635 ft3, and there are 7.48 gallons in a cubic foot, so your pond size is 94,510 gallons, or rounding off, is 90K gallons.

      2. I think you have very good advice already. If you find out that you have water run off with some toxic (organic or heavy metal) chemical treatment as GRAY CAT has mentioned to you earlier, I might be able to come up with a reasonable remedy since my background is in chemistry and I used to deal with hazardous materials regularly.

      Best of luck!
      Last edited by AkwaKoi; 01-29-2019 at 03:07 AM.

    10. #10
      GloriaL's Avatar
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      Just to note If your spring water is acidic you need to get some bags of lithaqua, oyster shells, or crushed coral and put it in bags at the spring. You will probably need to add baking soda in pretty large quantities untill you get enough alkalinity from your bags of "stuff".
      GloriaL
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    11. #11
      ademink's Avatar
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      Regarding changing out all of your water right now, I would not advise it. First figure out exactly what is going on before you do anything like that. I highly suspect pH crash. Your KH was so low and your pH was too, something seems to be going on there.
      Andrea
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      Last edited by kdh; 01-29-2019 at 12:01 PM.

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      Current pH: ~6.7 using drops and 7.0 using a test strip. Starting pH: 6.3 using a professional digital meter
      Current Ammonia: ~.10 using drops. Starting Ammonia: .25 using drops
      Current Nitrite: 0 using drops and .5 using a test strip. Starting Nitrite: 0
      Current Phosphate: .5 using drops. Starting Phosphate: .25 using drops
      Current GH: 180 using strip. Starting GH: 180 using strip
      Current KH: 50 using strip. Starting KH: 0 using strip
      Current Nitrate: ~30 using strip. Starting Nitrate: ~20 using strip

      So you have gone from .25 ammonia to .10 ammonia. Also ph started 6.3 to 6.7/7.0 and kh has gone from 0 to 50ppm. Use ph meter only to avoid confusion. So your pond is recovering. Please add NOTHING but baking soda. Other chemicals added have no value with your pond. You are seeing dead fish over the days but you have no idea how many are at the bottom of pond. So the bottom should be cleaned of any dead fish. Is the bottom of your pond free of any rocks gravel etc? Continue to add baking soda as was recommended until you reach your original ph values. This well also continue to increase your kh. Your koi continue to die because of the probable ph crash and damage that has occurred to the koi. Your expert should catch a couple that have issues and inspect the gills and scrape for parasites. Post good close up pics of fishes gills and body. Need pics of your bio system. You might have more deaths as the months go by. Your koi expert should come up with the reason why your pond crashed and this should be addressed in the future. jmo
      Last edited by kdh; 01-29-2019 at 12:24 PM.

    14. #14
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      I hope your die off has subsided. Koi especially older ones do die. But add in COLD weather with rain and spring fed, some will fail faster then others. Spring fed is great wish mine was spring fed. Water tables go up and down and can change the elemental make up of your water. A ph crash is nasty business. Maybe you should keep a couple big bags of oyster shell in the pond to help buffer the water. Seachem safe the last time i bought it was 225 for a 5 gallon bucket of powder it will last the average ponder quite a long time, since I do rescue I use a lot of it.You didn't mention if your an open system or closed system,open being that water continuously flows in and out. And always add the ammonia binder before you raise the Ph as ammonia becomes more toxic as the ph goes up. also depending on the binder doesn't it still show ammonia?

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