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    Thread: Hose faucet timer failure. What are the chances?

    1. #1
      KoiRun's Avatar
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      Hose faucet timer failure. What are the chances?

      Guys gals I need some input on something that has been bothering me for some time. I have this auto timer that is set to infuse water into my pond daily. It's winter so currently it is set to infuse 20 gallons of hot water daily. 5 gallons every six hours. What are the chances that when it fails, it fails in stuck-open-position (very bad)?

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      Based on my experience with similar devices and reading the reviews on this device I would says its more a question of when it will fail and not if it will fail. If I were doing this I would use a regular sprinkler valve attached to a sprinkler timer. Even better 2 sprinkler valves in series for extra piece of mind.

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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      Guys gals I need some input on something that has been bothering me for some time. I have this auto timer that is set to infuse water into my pond daily. It's winter so currently it is set to infuse 20 gallons of hot water daily. 5 gallons every six hours. What are the chances that when it fails, it fails in stuck-open-position (very bad)?

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      A typical garden valve only spec and run at atmospheric temperature ... how hot is your hot water input ?? most industrial valve will spell out it will fail-close (typical) or fail open depend on what you need.

      -d-

    4. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by ccna101 View Post
      A typical garden valve only spec and run at atmospheric temperature ... how hot is your hot water input ?? most industrial valve will spell out it will fail-close (typical) or fail open depend on what you need.

      -d-
      Hot water input is 120F.
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      I’m with Tbullard
      Double the protection unless you like to do this manually
      M.Nguyen


    6. #6
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      Currently on chat with orbit online.
      Anything technical I should be asking?
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      Ask them if is it safe for refill a koi pond ?
      M.Nguyen


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      ricshaw is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      Currently on chat with orbit online.
      Anything technical I should be asking?
      Is it true that if it fails, it fails in the closed position?


      member

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      I went ahead and ordered another unit from amazon and then, curious, I went to the orbit website the there was a chat box.
      What an awesome company. They are willing to send me another unit as a replacement for the one I already have and 'worrried' about. And yes I will go ahead and put 2 of these in a series when my amaozon one arrives. I will then have an extra one as backup. Sweet.

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      Freebie is alway awesome
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      I have used these for years and really like them. HOWEVER the (first) freeze can wipe them out. I also keep them in shade with no moisture just in case.

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      Quote Originally Posted by OCkoiFan View Post
      Freebie is alway awesome
      Usually you have to buy dinner.

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      I have a different timer, sets for the number of gallons, maximum is 1800 gallons. I have used them for years and have had at least 3, maybe 4. Only one has ever failed to turn off. I have well water so no big issue for me, just overfilled the pond.

      If you have chlorinated water, I would definitely use 2 for a backup. Maybe even two different brands.
      Nancy



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      We have used many of the battery water timers for drip irrigation over the years and YES they will stick open and flood out the plants. Sometimes it's low battery and others just failure.

      There is one I remember seeing that has low battery protection. The system monitors battery voltage and if getting low automatically closes the valve. Trouble is I don't remember the mfg. Never was a priority for us as we use non-treated well water and over watering outdoor plants short term not a big issue.
      Last edited by BWG; 01-22-2019 at 09:31 PM.

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      Here are two with low battery protection. There are probably others.

      Other issue is using one with hot water. I'd email the mfg and ask. Water in a hose exposed to sun gets very hot so maybe OK. It would be reasonable to think to be risky long term to operate. Maybe blend a little cold water in to keep temp down.
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    17. #17
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      Murphy's Law – – if it can fail, it will fail, it's just a matter of time. Another facet of Murphy's Law, is that it will fail at the worst possible time, and in the worst possible position. That being said you had six choices for it to fail in, so that would be 1/6 to be totally accurate!!!!

      I am so glad the company is replacing it, that makes me know, that they are a good company to deal with and that they value their product and how the public perceives it. You just did a lot of advertising for them!!!!!


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      Ok smart people am I ok now?

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      time to inject RO water
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      Two same type units in series looks better, but (there's always a but), without knowing the failure mechanism of the device, you may still have a problem. In other words if you have a 'common mode' failure mechanism. Let's say the gizmo fails at high ambient operating temperatures, (hot/freezing) or high/low water temperatures, or high water pressure, or pulsating water pressure .... just some examples of possible common-mode failure mechanisms. So the failure mechanism that causes the first unit to fail, would more than likely cause the second unit to fail and your 'double protection' design is screwed in an instant. Then there is the 'wear out' failure mechanism. Given that the gizmos will fail at some point in time, you could be running happily two years down the road with one unit failed. You are protected by the second unit but as your first unit has failed, the safety you think you have....well you don't. This would be solved by testing both units and the science of this would suggest a testing frequency of 1/5th to 1/10th of the MTBF of the units. Of course you have no idea of the device MTBF so you have to make an intelligent guess. Say 5 yrs for the MTBF...so testing every 6 or 12 months might be a good idea. Higher or lower testing frequency would also be a function of the financial risk you are taking...

      Anyway, the above can be regarded as some theoretical BS governing the general design of safety shut down systems... What is really needed are some specifics of the failure mechanisms of the device itself. It's electrically battery operated that much is obvious, and I assume the battery power opens the valve. The big question is what closes the valve. A spring is very good as it's a well known almost infallible mechanical device. If the battery power is also used to close the valve then I would suggest that that is a very poor design. As the battery power diminishes, it will likely reach a stage where it has just enough power to open the valve, but insufficient power to close. Test this by opening the valve, removing the batteries and checking if the valve closes. Most valves will be of a design which is Fail Closed, Fail Open or Fail Stationary. In the situation described, you definitely want Fail Closed (=when activating power is removed). I cannot see that the device would be Fail Open, but Fail Stationary is possible as it can be cheaper to manufacture. (magnetic coil switching from N to S to move from open to close....saves the cost of the spring). If the device is FS then two units in series will help. Common mode failure could be failure of the batteries....but unlikely to happen at the same time.

      Too much said and too late here to say any more. Cheers!

      Dan

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