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    Thread: Koi with sores on their sides that are getting worse - one koi not eating

    1. #1
      lajude is offline Member
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      Koi with sores on their sides that are getting worse - one koi not eating

      I am new to this forum. I have some sick koi. I have been bringing them into a large inside pond (380 gallons) every winter for the last 7 years along with some goldfish. I live in Colorado.

      This year, I think I was negligent in checking the ammonia levels. The test strips showed ok. I believe they got stressed from bringing them in due to overcrowding or bad water. I immediately corrected the water and now showing 0 ammonia, no nitrites and low levels of nitrates. I have reduced the number in the downstairs pond to 3 medium sized koi and 7 goldfish.

      My koi started showing red on their sides. I treated with melafix and pimafix per the fish store and pet store recommendations. Most of my goldfish have gotten better. 2 out of the 3 koi are not getting better.

      Now the red streaks have turned to sores and are not getting better. One of my koi is no longer eating.

      I have been trying to figure out what to treat them with but the local fish stores have not been able to give me consistent information.

      I've attached some pictures. I am not comfortable giving injections and I don't have a microscope. I have one koi in the outside pond still who seems to be doing ok.

      I really appreciate any help you can give me.
      Laura Davis

      Treatment thus far:
      Salt to .10% to .15%
      Melafix for 7 days
      off for 7 days
      Reduced pond level to 200 gallons to be able to treat with Pimafix
      Pimafix and Melafix for 7 days
      off for 7 days
      Isolated 2 koi to 35 gallon container for 4 days to treat with API. E.M. Erythromycin
      2 days treatment, 25% water change
      2 days treatment - moved back to original pond
      Increased pond level to 300 gallons maintaining .1% to .15% salt concentration. Will be increasing it gradually back to 380 gallons.
      Making sure pond water is good.
      Attached Images Attached Images   
      Last edited by lajude; 01-17-2019 at 12:32 PM.

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    2. #2
      ademink's Avatar
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      Hi Laura and welcome. I have quite a few questions to start with.

      Can you tell me what your water parameters are right now?

      Current numbers for:
      Ammonia
      Nitrite
      pH
      Temperature

      Please do not put any more melafix and pimafix in the water. Contrary to what the pet store tells you, they are not helpful and the melafix actually coats the koi's gills, inhibiting breathing.

      Do you have aeration in the pond right now?
      Are you using an ammonia binder at all?

      If you do not have an ammonia binder, I would advise you get one. I would also advise that you order a medication asap called Tricide-Neo. Here are my specific recommendations:

      Ammonia blocker - Prime by Seachem (on Amazon)
      Ammonia Alert disk (indicates toxic ammonia..hangs in pond) - also by Seachem (on Amazon)
      Tricide-Neo - (various stores online - if you are able to get expedited shipping, that would be great)
      API Fresh Water Master Test Kit (NOT the pond one...fresh water. Also on Amazon)
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member

    3. #3
      richtoybox's Avatar
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      As Andrea has said, buy the products. Safe by Seachem is a dry powder form of Prime, and is generally more cost effective, but for small quantities, Prime works great. Also for the Tricide Neo, buy the one gallon size packet and divide in 4ths for mixing with a quart of distilled water for using as a spray instead of a bath. All times and frequencies will be in accordance with the instructions on the packet, just keep the fish wetted with the spray. This reduces the waste and makes the refrigerated storage much easier. The balance of the powder should be packaged in ziplock bags and frozen for future use.
      Zone 7 A/B
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      Richard

    4. #4
      lajude is offline Member
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      Ammonia - 0
      Nitrite - 0
      ph - 7.0
      Water temp - 58 degrees (in pond in basement)
      Biological filter running into pond and circulating back into filter.
      two additional pumps for aeration - lots of aeration going on.

      I have ordered a freshwater API kit and Seechem prime already. Should be here in a couple days. I do have API ammonia tester but it is a couple years old but still using it. It has shown presence of ammonia in my small temp 50 gallon containers in my bathroom in which time I am doing water changes frequently.

      Also have test strips for testing.
      I will order Tricide Neo and ammonia detection. Didn't know about ammonia detector. Life saver for future.

      Do you dip or spray the Tricide Neo on the fish. I have read both methods being used. Should I bring the koi upstairs to warmer temperatures. What process do you use to apply the medication that stresses the koi the least.
      Thank you for responding.
      Attached Images Attached Images  

    5. #5
      lajude is offline Member
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      How often and how much for Neo Tricide.

    6. #6
      lajude is offline Member
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      I just ordered the Tricide Neo by express. Is there anything I can do in the meantime? Salt Dips, Neosporin applied to ulcers....???

    7. #7
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      I think that I would wait on the Tricide Neo. You will need clove oil to sedate the fish. Clove oil is available at GNC and some drug stores. Using a tub for sedation, put in one drop of clove oil per gallon of water and disperse with agitation or aeration for a few minutes before putting the fish in. The fish will soon roll over and not respond to touch, at which time the fish can be taken out and put in a tray or other tub, no water, and sprayed for the amount of time specified in the directions on the packaging. At the end of the time, rinse the fish in the tub with the clove oil and then put the fish back in the pond. Many will hold the fish and run it back and forth to wash the clove oil out of the gills and the fish will revive and swim off. I just put the fish back in my ponds and watch, and within minutes it is up and swimming. Kind of scary the first time you do it, but many of us have done it more than once and as far as I know, never had a problem.
      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    8. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      I think that I would wait on the Tricide Neo. You will need clove oil to sedate the fish. Clove oil is available at GNC and some drug stores. Using a tub for sedation, put in one drop of clove oil per gallon of water and disperse with agitation or aeration for a few minutes before putting the fish in. The fish will soon roll over and not respond to touch, at which time the fish can be taken out and put in a tray or other tub, no water, and sprayed for the amount of time specified in the directions on the packaging. At the end of the time, rinse the fish in the tub with the clove oil and then put the fish back in the pond. Many will hold the fish and run it back and forth to wash the clove oil out of the gills and the fish will revive and swim off. I just put the fish back in my ponds and watch, and within minutes it is up and swimming. Kind of scary the first time you do it, but many of us have done it more than once and as far as I know, never had a problem.
      I usually use 10-15 drops per gallon.
      --Steve



      Koiphen 2021 Koi Person of the Year!

    9. #9
      ademink's Avatar
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      Great advice above. Another method I use is direct-application w/ the Tricide. I like it b/c it's a "one and done".

      *Sedate the fish with clove oil and put on a surface that it won't slide off. I create a cradle out of small towels and lay plastic on it so the fish stays wet and doesn't rub it's slime coat off on something dry/abrasive.
      *Put a moist paper towel over the exposed eye
      *Put a little Tricide powder in a pile on top of a baggie (don't dip in the package. Important. You don't want moisture in the product)
      *Take a qtip and get it wet by gently rubbing on the with the fish's slime coat....dip it in the pile of powder
      *Gently* "work" it into the ulcerated areas, continuing to create a paste out of the powder and slime coat until there is Tricide on all wounds. It will goop up on the qtip so just keep kind of wiping it back on the fish
      *Leave it on for 2-3 minutes (feels like eternity lol)
      *Wipe it off gently and return koi to pond/QT and revive

      Close Tricide package tightly, put in a ziploc and store in the freezer. This saves a LOT of product and you don't have to repeat the process on the fish
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member

    10. #10
      ademink's Avatar
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      lajude...hate to tell you to order one more thing but.................lol

      You really need a KH test. Your pH is reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally low and scares me that you will have a crash, depending on what your KH levels are (KH levels determine the stability of pH). https://www.amazon.com/API-TEST-Fres.../dp/B003SNCHMA

      You can tell if your pH is swinging (which is very hard on the fish) by testing your pH in the morning and then again at dusk. Can you check it today when you get up and then again tonight and tell us if the numbers differ?

      Regarding your temperature question. Your fish will heal much more readily in warm temps - mid 70s at least. It may be easier to just get a heater for that pond.
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member

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      lajude is offline Member
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      Thank you everyone for all the information. The pH was estimate based on the test strip I viewed. I am getting a complete test kit tomorrow. I will let you know what I find out. I have used clove oil to euthanize two goldfish that got sick. How long can the koi stay out of water without dying? It will be scary using the clove oil to just put them to sleep. Should I put the koi in another container upstairs with heat since I don't have something I can heat the downstairs pond with (380 gallons)? The size will only be 35 gallons.

    12. #12
      lajude is offline Member
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      I have created two more posts. One regarding my sick goldfish (need help with) and one how to maintain my outside pond with my one koi that was left outside. Any help with those 2 posts will be greatly appreciated. I need help and I am very sad about everything going on.

    13. #13
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      Though it is best to have warmed water for speed of healing, it is more important to have good water, and I suspect that a koi in 35 gallons is going to overwhelm the tank so fast that it will be impossible to maintain good water. I would leave the fish downstairs. A submersible aquarium heater would help with temperature increase with a plastic sheet over the top to prevent evaporation which causes cooling.
      Zone 7 A/B
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      Richard

    14. #14
      lajude is offline Member
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      Just got my API Freshwater Master Test kit. The pH for the downstairs pond is reading 8.0. This test doesn't test for KH.

    15. #15
      ademink's Avatar
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      Correct. The KH test is separate. Link in message above. Here it is again:
      https://www.amazon.com/API-TEST-Fres.../dp/B003SNCHMA

      8.0 is good.
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member

    16. #16
      lajude is offline Member
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      Isolation tank was made. Temperature at 70 degrees and rising slowly. Treatment done tonight with Tricide neo. Both survived. How soon can I do parasite treatment Still waiting for medicine.

    17. #17
      ademink's Avatar
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      Good job!!! You can do parasite treatment as soon as it arrives.
      Andrea
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      lajude is offline Member
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      Thanks to you both for your advice. I will let you know the progress of their healing. Hopefully the parasite treatment will help the goldfish that have red inside of their bodies.

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      I have been testing the KH. It never turns bright yellow. At 4 drops it turns very light yellow. At 8-10 drops turns darker orange. Should I continue to add drops?

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      I had similar issues with my pond when I started keeping koi. what helped me is better filtration, more aeration, more frequent water changes, better food and less frequent feedings. It all goes down to keeping the water quality.

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