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  • Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
    Results 21 to 31 of 31

    Thread: help with "clean out" decision

    1. #21
      catfish whiskers's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by tom66 View Post
      Thank you so much for all these info: i have a couple of questions as I don't understand the following:
      1) what do you mean by "vertical position"? I was thinking of installing it on an horizontal pipe, but with the valve itself sideways or upside down (as opposed to the 'normal' vertical position. would that help towards preventing catching debris?
      2) So, perhaps I don't even need a second valve, I could just have a knife valve right at first, a Wye going up towards the Sieve, and straight line part could be blocked with something like your coupling with a cap glue to it. This may even work better than my idea of the threaded cap/clean-out-plug. I'd close the knife valve first (to stop pressure), open your coupling, let the BD gush out the gunk, close knife valve, close the 'coupling', and reopen the valve. Does it make sense? not that I'd do all this just to save $100, but it'd forgo with the cons using a ball valve (often hard to open & handle brake) and knife valve (leak & unsafe on the 'to-waste' line)
      3) can one insert one of those devices thru the knife valve if needs be? do you think it'd fit? (that way one could do away with the need for the clean out pipe)
      4) Why "Installing a coupling downstream of the knife valve can make its removal much easier"?
      5) I like your version of coupling, but do you need a gasket? are you saying that one could use this "coupling" to separate the two sections by just unscrewing the 8 screws? therefore it'd work as an union (I was thinking of using a Fernco with the same purpose but your coupling seems an even better solution)
      thanks for your time, your post is being very helpful
      Tom
      Vertical vs horizontal refers to direction of flow, regardless of what direction the handle is pointed in.
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      The gate valve seals tend to clog up with debris in the horizontal position, because of the u shaped channel on the inside of the seal . This only happens when the valves are left in the open position.
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      If You must install a “Y” in order to direct the pipe up towards the sieve, placing the gate valve on an angle would work fine , and if You want to install another gate valve on an outlet , install a fernco cap to insure against leakage.
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      The two halves of the valterra flanged fittings should be sealed together , a rubber gasket would make it easiest to remove , but silicone sealant is also easy to remove.
      Installing them after the gate valve let’s You remove the section of pipe with part of the valve so that the valve can be repaired.
      .
      Last edited by catfish whiskers; 12-31-2018 at 05:37 PM.

    2. #22
      tom66 is offline Senior Member
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      Thank you so much for all the time that you are taking to decide what to do, it's all being very helpful.


      "The gate valve seals tend to clog up with debris in the vertical position, because of the u shaped channel on the inside of the seal" . Would it solve this problem if I place knife valve upside down?

      "placing the gate valve on an angle would work fine". Are you saying that if I install it on a 45* I won't have that issue?


      "Installing them after the gate valve let’s You remove the section of pipe with part of the valve so that the valve can be repaired". I am sorry but I still don't get this part, can someone please explain to me: how can the removal the flange-coupling be helpful towards repairing the valve if the F.C. is after the valve? which part am I getting wrong?



      • I like the idea of a Fernco with a cap
      • Considering a 4" ball valve is $40 for the cheapest (and up for the single & double union ones) and a Valterra Knife V. is at least $80/90, which one would you use for the second one and why? (the one to waste)

      Thanks so much again
      Tom

    3. #23
      catfish whiskers's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by tom66 View Post
      Thank you so much for all the time that you are taking to decide what to do, it's all being very helpful.


      "The gate valve seals tend to clog up with debris in the vertical position, because of the u shaped channel on the inside of the seal" . Would it solve this problem if I place knife valve upside down?

      "placing the gate valve on an angle would work fine". Are you saying that if I install it on a 45* I won't have that issue?


      "Installing them after the gate valve let’s You remove the section of pipe with part of the valve so that the valve can be repaired". I am sorry but I still don't get this part, can someone please explain to me: how can the removal the flange-coupling be helpful towards repairing the valve if the F.C. is after the valve? which part am I getting wrong?



      • I like the idea of a Fernco with a cap
      • Considering a 4" ball valve is $40 for the cheapest (and up for the single & double union ones) and a Valterra Knife V. is at least $80/90, which one would you use for the second one and why? (the one to waste)

      Thanks so much again
      Tom

      I edited My post above to correct My comment about the horizontal vs vertical orientation of a gate/knife valve .
      It should have said that gate valve seals tend to clog up with debris in the horizontal position.

      Installing a gate/knife valve upside down would not solve that problem. Installing them in a vertical position would be better , and installing one at an angle like after a “Y’’ would be slightly better than horizontal. The knife part of the valve travels and is sealed in a groove that is between the two rubber seal sides. The debris collects in the bottom portion of this groove moreso when the valve is in the horizontal position. Clogs can usually be flushed by simply closing the BD valve , and draining the sieve , then opening the BD valve again. The big rush of water will usually clear a clog or flush any debris caught in the BD valve seal.
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      Installing any kind of coupling after the gate valve ,would make a removable section of pipe that had half of the gate valve on one end , and half the coupling on the other end . This would enable You to easily repair or clean the gate valve in extreme conditions when a flushing didn’t work .
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      I would use only gate/knife valves in both your applications . Gate/knife valves are either open , or closed.
      Your bottom drain valve will be mostly allways open , and Your flush line will be mostly allways closed.You will not have to worry about possible leakage out of the flush valve if You install the fernco cap as assurance.
      Ball valves are best for flow adjustment. Although a ball valve would work fine for both these applications, I don’t like the cheap ball valves .The cheapest quality 4’’ Ball valve I would consider , is one of the Red Flags, and these things are huge .
      .

      .https://www.supplyhouse.com/Red-Flag...ion-Ball-Valve
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      .https://drainageproducts.us/valterra...s-paddle-each/

      .
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    4. #24
      ricshaw is offline Supporting Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by catfish whiskers View Post
      The cheapest quality 4’’ Ball valve I would consider , is one of the Red Flags, and these things are huge .
      .
      .https://www.supplyhouse.com/Red-Flag...ion-Ball-Valve
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      .
      $97.9 ea... too bad Free Shipping on orders over $99.


      member

    5. #25
      catfish whiskers's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
      $97.9 ea... too bad Free Shipping on orders over $99.
      Just order something else for $1.05

    6. #26
      tom66 is offline Senior Member
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      Here’s My own version of a cheap 4’’ Coupling .
      .
      I buy 2 of these
      https://pool-spa-supplies.com/valter...SABEgLZuPD_BwE
      .
      File or cut off the raised lip on the flange side , and then the two flanges can be screwed and sealed together
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      I bought two more knife valves (the one from your link are much cheaper than the ones I bought before, thanks for the tip) and I am going to do like you recommend in terms knife valve, caps, etc.. , and I am thinking of maybe doing also two of your "coupling" but I wanted to ask you how difficult id to do the filing to make it match. Is it fairly simple?

      One problem I think I may end up having is the one of not ending up with a perfect leveling between pond WL and sieve. The reason is that I am not 100% certain where exactly WL will end up being. Specifically I have a range between lowest, average, and maximum WL and I am not so confident that I can meet those marks right on (the 3 marks are those where automatic fill and overflow kicks in, and the few inches in between are where neither one is engaged). So my sieve leve is off by too much I may have to take all the plumbing down and re-plump this section again. As you can imagine that can be a challenge as I have a 16" height differential between sieve and BD lines, and as I am raising these with two 45* (instead of using 90*s) making a change can be tricky. So one of those "coupling" may come handy, I could put it after the Wye right after the first 45* so that when I disconnect the Fernco at the sieve I will have only two stubs joined with a 45*. And I would have to shortened & lengthened both (and vice-versa) to raise (or lower) the sieve. (unless I were to somehow organize my self on the other side of the sieve with some kind of flexible coupling that would allow me to move sieve forward or backward some). What do you think? Have you ever come uacross with a similar situation? what can you recommend me to do now to minimize headaches later on?
      Thank for all your time, it's been really helpful to see all your diagrams, explanations, and links, and I hope that will make my 50K gal pond work
      Tom
      PS any advice about UV light? I am planning on running 8k GPH on this section, and another 8K GPH on the 4 skimmer section (different pit), what would you do in terms of UVs?
      Last edited by tom66; 01-03-2019 at 10:27 PM.

    7. #27
      icu2's Avatar
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      After I sent my pm I reread the question and thought of something that might work...
      Since you're not sure of the level of the sieve you might be able to gain a little height adjustment by adding
      a fernco on the vertical part of the pipe that needs to raise the BD pipe up to the correct height to connect
      to the sieve:

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      And unless I'm missing something I think instead of the two flanges it should allow you to remove the
      section of pipe between the knife valve and the sieve.

      I know I talked about this but just to see if anyone has a better guideline, I used 1watt per 100 gallons for my
      UV along with the flow suggestions of the manufacturer and a trusted retailer.

      --Steve
      Find more about Weather in Poulsbo, WA

      "It is far better to be alone, than to be in bad company." --George Washington

    8. #28
      tom66 is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      After I sent my pm I reread the question and thought of something that might work...
      Since you're not sure of the level of the sieve you might be able to gain a little height adjustment by adding
      a fernco on the vertical part of the pipe that needs to raise the BD pipe up to the correct height to connect
      to the sieve:

      Name:  Image2.jpg
Views: 58
Size:  18.8 KB

      And unless I'm missing something I think instead of the two flanges it should allow you to remove the
      section of pipe between the knife valve and the sieve.

      I know I talked about this but just to see if anyone has a better guideline, I used 1watt per 100 gallons for my
      UV along with the flow suggestions of the manufacturer and a trusted retailer.

      thank you Steve for the drawing and for your input. Your sketch is accurate except that I was thinking of going up with one 45*, and coming back horizontal with another 45* (so using two 45* instead of two 90*), Am I overdoing it? I can still put the Fernco in the position you suggest (in the 22" long diagonal pipe) and that will work just fine, except that if I do the 45s I will have a lot more complications if I need to raise or lower the sieve. Do you think the use of 45s in this case is valuable or what they'd bring to "the plate" is negligible ? (it's surely a lot easier doing it with 90s!)
      thanks again
      Tom

    9. #29
      icu2's Avatar
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      Unless you're going to push the flow limits of the sieve and you need every inch of weir travel possible, no I don't think
      you need to use the 45's. Worse case scenario your weir drops a fraction of an inch more... but as long as you have room
      left for it to drop lower, it won't really matter at what level it normally sits.
      --Steve
      Find more about Weather in Poulsbo, WA

      "It is far better to be alone, than to be in bad company." --George Washington

    10. #30
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      Hi Tom,

      I am not Steve, but I have exactly similar set up and yes, you are over think the issue... I have both:
      - Pair of 45 : this is very tricky since you have to match it with an 45deg angle and cost much more for 45deg ... You are also need more real estate ...
      - Pair of 90: this is much better to align and the flow is ... strong ... I never have issue with BD clogged ...

      I have 45 deg at one time, need to redo it to gain more real estate ( bigger pump ) ... and now, remove them all for RDF and re - use the pit for more pond ! .

      -d-

    11. #31
      tom66 is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by ccna101 View Post
      Hi Tom,

      I am not Steve, but I have exactly similar set up and yes, you are over think the issue... I have both:
      - Pair of 45 : this is very tricky since you have to match it with an 45deg angle and cost much more for 45deg ... You are also need more real estate ...
      - Pair of 90: this is much better to align and the flow is ... strong ... I never have issue with BD clogged ...

      I have 45 deg at one time, need to redo it to gain more real estate ( bigger pump ) ... and now, remove them all for RDF and re - use the pit for more pond ! .

      -d-
      thank you for your point, it means a lot to hear it from someone that has done something similar already. You (and Steve) convinced me out of my idea of the 45*s, and I will be so glad of this advice the day that i have to move the sieve an inch up or down: it'll be way way easier with the two 90*s !!
      Thanks.
      Tom

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