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    Thread: New Asagi with a Pink Spot and a Kohaku going in-and-our of consciousness

    1. #1
      HarleysnKoi is offline Junior Member
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      New Asagi with a Pink Spot and a Kohaku going in-and-out of Consciousness

      Hello users, Iím new to the site and new to koi in general. I have a small mix of koi and have been having some problems. Probably one of the most pressing issues is an Asagi with this strange growing pink spot and a Kohaku behaving weirdly.. I got these fish on Christmas Eve and picked them up off of a breeder of koi. Yesterday, Christmas Day, I noticed one of the Kohaku behaving strangely. Sometimes he would stop swimming all together and lay on the bottom. If someone else whacked him with a tail or swam by squickly he would bounce in the current and off the gravel. Sometimes heíd only swim with one fin or the other. Then heíd go through periods of being completely fine. Also there is an Asagi with problems.

      While I was acclimating this Asagi and the four other I bought, I noticed a small pink spot in the Asagiís blue. This Asagi has no red by the way. Today the spot has grown three times larger. Iíve been literally scaring myself to death with reading up on the internet what it could be. The Asagi seems to be fine in terms of temperament.

      I have a 38 gallon tank. There are 9 koi inside. Four I got from the pet shop and five from this breeder. There is approximately 110 gallons worth of filtration. I upped the filtration per the recommendation of the breeder. He was super knowledgeable. I also put some hydrogen peroxide in the tank to help one of my original four as this adorable mutt of a koi had fin clamp.

      Per his recommendation I put in 1/4 cup of hydrogen peroxide the day before Christmas Eve. Seeing this Kohaku last night and the Asagi this morning Iíve been on the internet a lot and trying to help this Asagi. I also added salt to the aquarium. I put 3/4 cup of kosher salt with no additives in the aquarium. I also caught the Asagi and rubbed the afflicted area with hydrogen peroxide to help it. After I did I noticed the area slightly raised with some slime trailing from the afflicted area as well as from a patch further back in his back.

      So thatís what I got. An Asagi with a pink wound and a Kohaku who likes to stop being an animate object. 1/4 cup of hydrogen peroxide, 3/4 cup of salt, and a peroxide swab. Any ideas and thanks in advance!
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      Last edited by HarleysnKoi; 12-27-2018 at 02:05 AM.

    2. #2
      KoiRun's Avatar
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      You need to buy a water testing kit ASAP. The API master testing kit for freshwater which includes a high range ph is highly recommended. Not included in this is the KH test kit. Buy this too along with a water thermometer. Post your results ASAP.
      Can you upload a video of your fish and tank? You can also post more photos of your set up, fish and filter.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



    3. #3
      mplskoi is online now Supporting Member
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      I agree with KoiRun, API master kit plus KH. I would also get a salt meter.
      We generally don't take care of fish. We take care of water and in good water the fish will thrive.
      You are obviously over stocked. Do you have plans of how to remedy that?

    4. #4
      HarleysnKoi is offline Junior Member
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      Hello Koirun and mplskoi. Thank you both for the assistance and concern. I will try and get this info for you both as soon as possible. Also, I’m doing this with a friend so forgive me if I am slow in getting info to you as the koi are at his place. I asked him a question 30 min ago with no response yet lol. In regards to an overcrowding, there is a 10 gallon tank that could be utilized and move two or three to the other tank. These guys are all gonna be outside fish eventually.

      See, this friend dug a pond in his back yard and when I saw it I knew it was already too small and too shallow. I was like, “dude, your fish will die in the winter.” So that’s how they became inside koi for now. He and I are total noobs to this. When we first got them inside we had problems with water clarity and lost a doitsu mutt. Overfeeding issues. I’ve had my friend feeding them with a timer on and what doesn’t get eaten in 5 min gets scooped out. I’ve also been drilling into his head that 100% water changes aren’t the best answer. And also, he did a 100% water change on the 22nd. Ever since we implemented a 5 min feeding rule and adding hydrogen peroxide (last two weeks) there has been a vast improvement in quality, but with your requests I’m guessing there is a ways to go. Lol

      So, that is where we are at. As Soon as I can get any of this info for you and pics, I will. Thank you both for your time.

    5. #5
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      While getting the test kits, get a Seachem Ammonia Alert Card. With the filter being as new as it is and with as many new fish as you have, you have an ammonia problem. The tests will confirm this. Also get some Prime, Safe, or Cloram-X to detoxify the ammonia. Stop feeding until the filter has a chance to mature, which could be up to 6 weeks, and stop the tank treatment with peroxide.

      The asagi can be treated by drying the affected area and smearing on some triple antibiotic ointment, but water quality will be the thing that is most important. Numbers please.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    6. #6
      HarleysnKoi is offline Junior Member
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      Hello Koirun and mplskoi,

      Per your advice I went over to that friends and he picked up two kinds of kits for water testing. I have moved three of the koi over to the smaller tank. And it was my error. That is a 15 gal tank. So there is a 38 gal tank and a 15 gal tank.

      The 38 gal tank has an undergravel filter, a Top Fin Silent stream Filter rated for 40-75 gal tank. There is an automatic heater that doesn’t have a temperature control. There is a tank thermometer reading about 75įF. The bottom is lined with gravel, there is a decorative castle and some fake plants. It is housing six koi now but had nine.

      The 15gal tank has an undergravel filter, a Top Fin Silent Stream Filter rated for 40-75 gal tank. Same heater and thermometer with same thermometer and a reading of 75įF. The bottom is lined with gravel and it has some fake plants. It is housing three koi.

      Pictures of both will follow. Now, we took a source test with these kits, a test for the 38 gal tank,and a test for the 15 gal tank. Please keep in mind that the tank with 38 gal was 100% changed on the 22nd today is the 27th. The 15 gal tank just had those three thrown in there.

      During every water change there is an addition of Imagitarium Ammonia Remover and Water Conditioner. There is also kosher salt and hydrogen peroxide in both tanks. Now for the readings!

      Source water (tap water) pH - 7.6, High Range pH - 7.4, NH3/NH4 (ammonia) - 1ppm, NO2 (Nitrate) -0, NO3 (nitrate) - 0, kH - 0

      38 gal tank: pH - 7.6, High Range pH - 7.4, NH3/NH4 - 1ppm, NO2 - 5, NO3 - 40-80 (couldn’t tell by the color chart), kH - 40

      15 gal tank: pH -7.6, High Range pH - 7.4, NH3/NH4 - 1ppm, NO2 - 0, NO3 - 0, kH - 80

      I hope I took those correctly for you folks. I’ll try and get some pictures down for you. Thanks in advance for your interest and help.

    7. #7
      HarleysnKoi is offline Junior Member
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      I also, read in another forum to apply a Q-tip soaked in hydrogen peroxide to the afflicted Asagi with the pink scaling and some Neosporin (triple antiobiotic). The asagi is not very happy with me right now... :-/

    8. #8
      HarleysnKoi is offline Junior Member
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      Hey RichToyBox! Thank you also for joining in on the conversation. I know that we must seem like awful neglectful parents lol. I will cease with the hydrogen peroxide if you think it best. And I already swabbed the Asagi lol. Numbers have been posted.

    9. #9
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      Here are some pictures of the 38 gallon tank.
      Attached Images Attached Images      

    10. #10
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      The Imagitarium Ammonia Remover and Water Conditioner appears to be similar to Prime, though I have no experience with it. The ammonia is converted from NH3 (toxic) to NH4 (non-toxic), but the ammonia test kit will still read it as ammonia. The only way to know if there is enough conditioner is to have the Ammonia Alert Card, which shows the toxicity, and if it is bound as NH4, then the card will show it as safe, but if it is not sufficiently bound, then it will show the level of toxicity. Since the fish generate ammonia, mostly through the gills, the level of conditioner needed can be monitored. Feeding the fish increases the level of ammonia generated, also.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
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      Richard

    11. #11
      HarleysnKoi is offline Junior Member
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      Here is the new 15 gal tank with its three new babies.
      Attached Images Attached Images      

    12. #12
      HarleysnKoi is offline Junior Member
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      Hello again RichToyBox, thanks for your advice. I will go pick up one of those cards tomorrow. What do those other readings tell you, that I have posted above? So how long should I starve these poor guys in the event that the ammonia is indeed toxic and high?

    13. #13
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      I will let others chime in such as Rich after this post. He's got a ton of experience. As per Richtoybox buy a Seachem Ammonia Alert Card and an ammonia binder such as seachem safe or prime. Per mplskoi buy a salt meter such as the koimedic one. You will need more salt on hand to neutralize the toxic effect of nitrites until the tanks are fully cycled. A pound of salt per 100G of water is a good dose and is easy to remember until you have a salt meter. Stop feeding (they won't die). I would change 10-20 percent water per day that is salted, temperature neutral and dechlorinated (with prime), the fish will appreciate this (more than food). Just prepare buckets of these and leave overnight for the water change the next day. Maybe it is just me, but I don't pass Go, until water parameters are all corrected. It will be AMAZING to see health improve as water parameters improve. Test your water every other day for now; you should see improvements over time. Good luck and welcome to Koiphen.
      Last edited by KoiRun; 12-27-2018 at 09:38 PM.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



    14. #14
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      They will do fine with little or no food for the weeks leading up to the filter maturing. The fish expel ammonia, which burns the gills and other tissues, like it burns your nose, if not bound. The signs of maturing will be nitrite will begin to climb, as the ammonia eating bacteria start converting some of the ammonia. The addition of salt at one pound per hundred gallons will protect the fish from the effects of the nitrite, once it starts to show. Then the ammonia should start to fall and nitrate will eventually start to show. The nitrate can only be removed with water changes, which should be limited to 25% at a time. Once the ammonia and nitrite have fallen to zero the filter is cycled. Besides the ammonia level being high, the problematic number that you provided is KH. I don't know if it is the way you ran the test, but if you are using the API test kit, the color will change with the addition of a drop of solution, you just need to know which drop. Each drop is about 17.9ppm. The test requires the tube to be filled to the mark with the test water, and then drops of the solution added one at a time, shaken, then add more until the color changes. The KH needs to be up about 80 or higher for stable pH, and it can be raised with baking soda. Don't worry about a specific pH value, just a stable value, morning and evening. The higher KH will help the beneficial bacteria develop by neutralizing the acids that they produce.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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      Richard

    15. #15
      HarleysnKoi is offline Junior Member
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      Hi again, RichToyBox, thanks again for your reply. I’m so sorry I’m new at this and so is my friend. And I really thank you for your concern and your assistance (and everyone else so far as well).

      If you think the nitrite or nitrate level is high in the 38 gal tank I will do a 25% change.

      As for kH it’s 40 in the 38 tank and 80 in the 15 tank. How much baking soda should I add?

    16. #16
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      Per the calculator, you would need to add about 8 grams of baking soda to bring you up to 80, and I think that would be about a heaping teaspoon of baking soda. There really is no maximum. The nitrite of 5 on the 38 gallon tank would say that at least some bacterial action is going on, but it would also require salt, of at least 1/3 pound, though 1 pound wouldn't hurt. Then the salt test pen needs to read salinity of at least 0.1%, 1ppt, 1000ppm. That tank will probably cycle fairly quickly, if there is enough gravel for the undergravel filter to handle all of the waste.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    17. #17
      HarleysnKoi is offline Junior Member
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      Hi Rich, I’ll add the baking soda to the 38 gal tank. Should I do a water change before I throw in the teaspoon of baking soda?

      As for salt, I’ve been doing it with a dry measuring cup. Right now there is 3/4 cup in the 38 gal tank.

    18. #18
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      Oh, and Rich. How often and how long should I Rub Neosporin on this Asagi?

    19. #19
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      Hello folks, Rich I wanted to especially address you and let you know I couldn’t get that Seachem kit. My friend went to a Petstore and I went to two. None of them had it. I have ordered it online and should have two coming in the next few days. Sorry! I did a 1/4 tank change today with a little salt and with the ammonia lock chemical and dechlorinater. And gave the Asagi another treatment of Neosporin. Would you guys like some more tests? Any thing you’d like us to do? Let me know and thank you so much!

    20. #20
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      What brand ammonia binder are you using? When did you last check for ammonia and what is the result? Water temp? Room temp? What brand filter do you have and what media is inside?
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



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