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    Thread: Probable Bacterial Infection - Looking for SoCal supplier of Sabbactisun

    1. #21
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      Neutralizing the ammonia from NH3 (toxic) to NH4 (non-toxic) is the job of Safe, Prime, Cloram-X or similar treatments, but the API test for ammonia will still show the same levels, toxic or non-toxic and not show how much of each. There is a card "Ammonia Alert Card" from Seachem that shows only the toxic ammonia. Petsmart should have it in stock and I would highly recommend having it hanging in a skimmer or other area with water flow to see when/if you have any toxic ammonia. If toxic is showing, add more neutralizer.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    2. #22
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      Fortunately PetSmart did have one bottle of Prime. So that's what I'm using.

      I spent a good chunk of yesterday cleaning the pond, treating and cycling as much water as I could (probably 30% +-). I'm adding more water now.

      The Koi has not gotten worse, and I think has improved a little particularly in the dimensions of mobility and a little less swollen and less puffy scales. Still no apparent appetite. But he has done that sort of thing before and the water is pretty cold. (However other Koi and goldfish eat more or less normally.)

      Nitrates are down to lowest end of spectrum. Phosates are near lowest. Ammonia is still around .25 - .50 ppm. Will check again later after more Prime and flushing.

      I'm not sure why. We got a little rain last night and the wind pushed a lot of leaves into the pond over night (I'm taking out today), but the pH has dropped a lot. It's usually off the scale at 9+. It's actually slightly acidic now at around 6.5. I've never seen it that low. It has always been alkaline when I've tested before. There is no change in the behavior of any of the other koi, and as noted above, the sickly one is either no worse, or slightly better.

      Unfortunately with Christmas and family in town, this hasn't been terribly convenient timing. I'll call Harrisons tomorrow. I also just remembered/realized yesterday the new wife of my cousin is an exotics vet and is apparently fish qualified. So I'll ping her too. Maybe she can come out and do injections.

      Thank you for all your help. And Merry Christmas.

    3. #23
      ademink's Avatar
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      Whoa. 9+ to 6.5?? That is called a pH crash.

      Do you have a KH test kit? If so, what is your KH reading?

      At dusk, please get a pH reading. It's highly probable that you will need to add baking soda to raise and stabilize your pH.

      As for your ammonia reading...please note what Rich said. Until you get an ammonia alert disk, you are getting a false reading and you don't know what your actual harmful ammonia reading is:

      "...the API test for ammonia will still show the same levels, toxic or non-toxic and not show how much of each. There is a card "Ammonia Alert Card" from Seachem that shows only the toxic ammonia. Petsmart should have it in stock and I would highly recommend having it hanging in a skimmer or other area with water flow to see when/if you have any toxic ammonia. If toxic is showing, add more neutralizer."
      Andrea
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    4. #24
      ademink's Avatar
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      I also wanted to add that you don't need to test nitrAtes and phosphate. The levels to keep an eye on are:

      Ammonia (using ammonia alert card since you are using an ammonia binder)
      Nitrites (not nitrates)
      pH
      KH
      Andrea
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    5. #25
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      Thank you for the additional advice. I'll get an Ammonia alert disk tomorrow.

      The pH went back to 9. I *assume* it was because of the leaf fall and maybe rain?? I cleaned out the leaves and added maybe 5-10% water and it roughly returned. It was surprising, never saw that before.

      I do have a kH test, but haven't used it. I'll do that tomorrow.

      Is there a recommended salinity test kit? I've put in 2KG pond salt, which is apparently not very much for a pond my size, but I don't want to add anymore without knowing the actual salinity.

    6. #26
      ademink's Avatar
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      If your pH went from 9 to 6.5 back to 9 and your fish are fine...something doesn't make sense.

      I'm guessing that you have a *wide* range pH testing kit as opposed to a *high* range testing kit...is that correct? You need high range pH to kit to actual decipher what your pH is. Wide range gives you a general ballpark, not an actual number.

      The KH test is very easy. You literally fill the tube with water and count drops while capping and inverting to figure out your KH level. If your pH is swinging that much, you need your KH levels asap so you can get baking soda in your pond to stabilize your pH. Your fish cannot handle swinging pH for long.

      The easiest way to measure salt is a salinity meter similar to this:
      https://www.amazon.com/Hydroponics-G...32342237&psc=1

      If you know your pond volume and how much salt you have put in it, you can use this easy online calculator to figure out your salinity:
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/koicalcs.php?do=calcsalt
      Andrea
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    7. #27
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      pH test is wide range. I will get high range when I get ammonia alert disk.

      KH measures in the 140 - 200ppm range. It turned blue to yellow around drop 9, so perhaps on the moderate lower end of that range according to the API test I have. City water out here is pretty "hard" and alkaline.

      NOTE: The Nitrites are near 0 ppm. The test I have is for Nitrites, not Nitrates.

      The sick koi looks obviously sick to anyone, including redness, which I understand is a bad sign. OTOH, he's noticeably moving better.
      Last edited by Vettezuki; 12-26-2018 at 04:46 PM.

    8. #28
      ademink's Avatar
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      OK, excellent. That KH means that your pH will remain stable so I think that reading was a fluke. I donít recall if this was mentioned previously but you need to dose with the binder every 48 hours For the full pond water holding tank volume .
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member



    9. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by ademink View Post
      OK, excellent. That KH means that your pH will remain stable so I think that reading was a fluke. I donít recall if this was mentioned previously but you need to dose with the binder every 48 hours For the full pond water holding tank volume .
      Please elaborate. Every 48 hours until the readings are all golden, then as needed. Or as ongoing maintenance?

      Just got back with "dual alert wheel" from Seachem. The ammonia wheel will apparently show if there is free ammonia, whatever that means, within 15 minutes.

      Regarding pH, I think it was a fluke local reading too. But weird. We'll see what the wheel says shortly.

      Also, is there any trick or tool to measuring volume other than fully removing and refilling through a meter? I'm only estimating by assuming the perimeter -> circumference -> radius and average depth as height of cylinder -> V=πr2h. I think when I did that before removing a bunch of rocks, it came out to something like 1,800 gal. But I feel that is little better than a guess.

      Kirk, All:

      Should I bother with a pond heater? You suggested what amounts to a Koi ICU including higher temps, which I'd love to do, but is a little out of reach for me right now. However, adding a pond heater probably isn't. Basically I have to focus my efforts on the pond in which the sick koi lives at this time, trying to benefit them all and hope its enough for him too. He looks fairly awful, but is moving noticeably better.
      Last edited by Vettezuki; 12-26-2018 at 07:38 PM.

    10. #30
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      The salinity calculator will calculate the volume if you have a means of measuring the salinity. The salinity can be measured by the meter mentioned by ademink. Get one reading before adding any more salt. Get solar salt crystals, not pellets, in the water softener section of the big box hardware stores. Using your estimated volume, add one pound of salt measured per 100 gallons. If your estimate is correct, the meter will read an increase of 1.2ppt (0.12%), but most likely will give some other value, which the calculator will read as the pond volume. Most estimates are off by as much as 50%, with the ponds being much smaller than thought, due to slopes on the sides, shelves, etc, but this method will add in the volume of the filtration and plumbing. Just be sure to give the salt a chance to thoroughly dissolve and disperse before taking the second reading.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    11. #31
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      So water presently looks like this is including first check of Seachem wheels after being in the skimmer box for maybe 40 minutes.

      Nitrites: safe, down towards 0 ppm (API test)
      Ammonia: safe, down towards 0 ppm (Seachem wheel)
      KH: 140 - 200 ppm (API test)
      pH: Seachem was reading 7. Mmm. Either pH is moving around for an unknown reason or the API Wide test I was using was routinely reading more basic than the water really is. I'll keep an eye on the wheel and see if it bounces around.
      Temps: probably mid 50s to high 40s. But I'll check when I get a thermometer
      Salinity: probably not more than 0.03% based on 2KG and 1,800 gal. But the volume is a rough guess and some was flushed. Likely to be lower. I'll check when I get salinity tester.

    12. #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      . . . Get solar salt crystals, not pellets. . .
      Ok, no problem. But why?

      So far it's just been the "pond salt" from PetSmart.

    13. #33
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Vettezuki View Post
      Ok, no problem. But why?

      So far it's just been the "pond salt" from PetSmart.
      Pets Smart Salt = 40 oz.

      Home Depot Solar Crystals = 40 lbs.
      --Steve
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      Who knows what the tide could bring." --Tom Hanks in Cast Away

    14. #34
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      With your KH, unless there is a significant build up of carbon dioxide, due to lack of aeration, the pH should be about 8.3/8.4.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    15. #35
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      pH reads about 7.4 this morning on the Seachem wheel. So it seems it is relatively stable just above neutral. pH remains a bit of a mystery. . .

      Regarding aeration, I just have a moderate waterfall that spills over some rocks and then into the pond. How do I know if its enough aeration to introduce oxygen and prevent build up of carbon dioxide?

      The good news is that the sick Koi has begun to show just a bit of interest in food again. He ate a few pellets. He looks like crap and doesn't move or eat like the others by any means, but he's been moving a little better and this is the first time in perhaps a week he's shown any interest in food at all. Assuming Koi are the same as most living creatures, relative interest in food is pretty much the leading indicator that something is going wrong or getting better. So without getting my hopes up too high, I'll take it as a positive sign.

      In watching KoiVet videos, I don't think he had/has Dropsy. He never had ALL his scales puffed up, which apparently is the case in Dropsy. So maybe a combination of crappy water (now much better) and some infection? If he has an infection, do those clear up on their own through their own immune system so long as the water is good? Or does that usually require a more direct intervention?
      Last edited by Vettezuki; 12-27-2018 at 05:14 PM.

    16. #36
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      Just got my salt and temp gauge.

      Ok, so the 2KG, not quite 5 lbs, which was added in part while flushing, has had barely in effect on salinity. It doesn't even register on the % side, have to use ppm, and it's about 480ppm.

      I need to figure out volume per RichToyBox's instructions, but assuming I'm anywhere near the 1,800 gal range, or even half, I'd need to put in considerably more to get to 0.3% that's for sure. Off to Home Depot. Thanks for that tip. Just the salt could have gotten a bit expensive.

      Also water temp is about 56F.
      Last edited by Vettezuki; 12-27-2018 at 05:14 PM.

    17. #37
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      If you have 1,800 gallons of water it will take 45 pounds of salt to get 0.3%.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

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      ph is holding 7.4 according to Seachem Alert wheel. I can't really account for the difference in pH between city water and the pond. But it is holding above neutral now.

      Salinity, after 8.4 pounds total this week (though some water change was done concurrently) is 0.1%. So I'm probably on the lower end of my very wide range estimate of 1,200 - 1,800 galloons. I'll put in 12lbs, see where it goes and make the appropriate calculations.

      It got pretty cold and windy, so water temp is fluctuating a lot. It was 56F yesterday, it's 50F now. So over 5 degree drop in 24 hours.

      He's still moving around, even hanging around the other fish, but didn't eat this morning as he did yesterday, but none of them were particularly eager including the biggest one, who is usually an aggressive eater, so I'll chalk that up to water temp mostly.
      Last edited by Vettezuki; 12-28-2018 at 03:49 PM.

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      Sadly he didn't make it. I think the sea-sawing temps dropping into the 40s may have just become too much. He probably crashed yesterday sometime while I was out. Even yesterday morning he didn't have any open sores, but today when I pulled his body out, there were two large nasty ones. I'm pretty bummed but glad the bad water situation didn't harm any other ones and there wasn't some other pathogen working its way through the population. I'll keep a much closer eye on the water to maintain more idealized parameters. Thank you all for your help.

      I don't know if it's just how cold the water is, which is around 50F+-, but basically none of the 12lbs of salt I put in yesterday dissolved into the pond; the salt meter only moved some parts per million, nothing like 0.1%.

      I went ahead with adding the earation today anyway. It's cheap enough and figured it might help the enviornment and health of the other fish.

      Thank you all for your help.

    20. #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Honestly I'd skip the Melafix. It makes the water smell good but little else imho.
      Hello ICU2, If we don't use Melafix, which one is better ?
      Thanks

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