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    Thread: Spawning or sick?

    1. #21
      headman is offline Senior Member
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      I’m almost 100% sure that female you say is a male ... the white one is also a female. But ok

    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by headman View Post
      I’m almost 100% sure that female you say is a male ... the white one is also a female. But ok
      So you think the female are chasing the Male koi? Anyway i don't think your fish are sick at all. The flash was from parasites or something and since it stopped I wouldn't do anything now. Just watch for a possible spawn and bind ammonia and do a large water change if they do. Also keep watching for flashing or odd behavior

    3. #23
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      Why do you, an admitted inexperienced koi keeper, want so badly for this to be spawning behavior? BTW if you wait several days to check for eggs after you see the”activity”, you won’t find any eggs because the koi eat the eggs. Also if you have spawning you will likely see an ammonia, then nitrite spike if you are checking your water daily( which you should do if you suspect spawning activity-the protein released as eggs and milt will overwhelm your filter and then You will have water quality problems).
      The females do NOT flutter their fins to express eggs, the males mash thm out of them! It can be brutal for the females, and it is not unheard of for the females to be killed during spawning.
      Also, how did you go from always having water that is a pH of 6-6.5 to always having a pH of 8.3?
      If you really want to learn, you will listen to folks that have a lot more experience than you do; you can be very very smart and competqnt in other fields, but accurate informatio on koi behavior is scarce. Anybody can post a youtube video and call it what they want to. I learned the hard way, Listen to experienced koi keepers!
      GloriaL
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    4. #24
      headman is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by GloriaL View Post
      Why do you, an admitted inexperienced koi keeper, want so badly for this to be spawning behavior? BTW if you wait several days to check for eggs after you see the”activity”, you won’t find any eggs because the koi eat the eggs. Also if you have spawning you will likely see an ammonia, then nitrite spike if you are checking your water daily( which you should do if you suspect spawning activity-the protein released as eggs and milt will overwhelm your filter and then You will have water quality problems).
      The females do NOT flutter their fins to express eggs, the males mash thm out of them! It can be brutal for the females, and it is not unheard of for the females to be killed during spawning.
      Also, how did you go from always having water that is a pH of 6-6.5 to always having a pH of 8.3?
      If you really want to learn, you will listen to folks that have a lot more experience than you do; you can be very very smart and competqnt in other fields, but accurate informatio on koi behavior is scarce. Anybody can post a youtube video and call it what they want to. I learned the hard way, Listen to experienced koi keepers!

      I have spoke to 2 local koi keepers .. one is a farm and the other is an actual marine biologist and they both say it’s premature spawning. I see it 24/7 ... you get to see a few minute video clip which show obvious spawning behavior but you deny it over and over ... then you want me to believe you (some strange).

      I don’t know what you talking about with my water being 6pmm... it’s ALWAYS 8.3 with my high KH ... which is common knowledge if you have a high KH your ph will be solid and near 8.3pmm.

      Just because YOU have never experienced something doesn’t make it “Parasites”. Horrible advice to just throw out there with an assumption. Again... just because you have never seen adolescent koi act this way when water temps drop and then rise drastically in a day doesn’t mean it can’t/doesn’t happen to someone else. You never learn anything when you already know everything?

      I have posted links with very similar experiences as mine but aaah ... it’s just an illness or parasites. It’s very frustrating dealing with people that think they know and have SEEN it all. I show you the proof but it doesn’t matter.

      I know most of the eggs are probably gone and that is why I did not move the milk crates. I know now what it is but at the beginning I wanted to make sure and hear it from people that actually know thier stuff... But just like the marine biologists told me .. don’t bother with asking on those social media sites because they will say any and everything. Smart guy it seems but I want OTHERS to learn from this .. Koi that are adolescent go through the motions at least of spawning.
      Last edited by headman; 12-15-2018 at 03:07 PM.

    5. #25
      ademink's Avatar
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      So you just came on here to test us and teach us all a lesson or what?
      Andrea
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    6. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by ademink View Post
      So you just came on here to test us and teach us all a lesson or what?

      Like I said ... at first I wasn’t sure and I came to FB and here for solid and accurate advice but MOST jump right to something wrong. You don’t find that concerning?
      Last edited by headman; 12-15-2018 at 02:57 PM.

    7. #27
      ademink's Avatar
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      Have you scraped and scoped your fish?
      Andrea
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    8. #28
      headman is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by ademink View Post
      Have you scraped and scoped your fish?
      Why would I stress them out if there isn’t anything wrong? Should you do it twice a year or something like that?

    9. #29
      ademink's Avatar
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      My point is that it isn't necessarily and either/or thing. You could have spawning AND you could have parasites. I have had koi for 15ish years and I personally have only seen them flash when they have parasites or their are issues w/ pH swinging. Since that has been my experience, that is what I am going to share with you. I'm a Certified Koi Keeper. These are the things I have learned, these are the things I have experienced. I'm not sure why that is so concerning.

      I don't scrape and scope any set amount of time but if I start to see flashing consistently, that is my go-to.

      Again, "IMHO", as I prefaced my initial comment with.
      Andrea
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    10. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by ademink View Post
      My point is that it isn't necessarily and either/or thing. You could have spawning AND you could have parasites. I have had koi for 15ish years and I personally have only seen them flash when they have parasites or their are issues w/ pH swinging. Since that has been my experience, that is what I am going to share with you. I'm a Certified Koi Keeper. These are the things I have learned, these are the things I have experienced. I'm not sure why that is so concerning.

      I don't scrape and scope any set amount of time but if I start to see flashing consistently, that is my go-to.

      Again, "IMHO", as I prefaced my initial comment with.
      So you are not willing to learn from someone else’s experience? There is very little information about adolescent/pre-mature spawning and to me I would be excited to know more about it. All the “professionals I speak to about it say this ... 90% online say parasites. Also this entire post shows that not many are open to a new experience. I’m an open book and I am anal about everything I do ... I love facts and knowledge. I was hoping this site would help more than all the negative people of FB but I guess it’s all the same. People can learn a lot for each other if they just listen and realize we’re not always right because a book said flashing was parasites or the only time someone seen it was because they are sick (just examples) I have read koi flash/rub on things to clean them off during spawning. I really appreciate the time people have took to help but I believe we shouldn’t just jump to a negative when it could be something new to learn from.

    11. #31
      ademink's Avatar
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      I never said anything about being unwilling to learn and I'm not interested in engaging in a pissing match with you.

      I made the first mistake by commenting on this thread, erroneously thinking it was in the Healthcare Forum, based on the title.

      Best of luck to you and your breeding.
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member



    12. #32
      kdh is offline Senior Member
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      how old is this koi

    13. #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by headman View Post
      I have spoke to 2 local koi keepers .. one is a farm and the other is an actual marine biologist and they both say it’s premature spawning. I see it 24/7 ... you get to see a few minute video clip which show obvious spawning behavior but you deny it over and over ... then you want me to believe you (some strange).

      I don’t know what you talking about with my water being 6pmm... it’s ALWAYS 8.3 with my high KH ... which is common knowledge if you have a high KH your ph will be solid and near 8.3pmm.

      Just because YOU have never experienced something doesn’t make it “Parasites”. Horrible advice to just throw out there with an assumption. Again... just because you have never seen adolescent koi act this way when water temps drop and then rise drastically in a day doesn’t mean it can’t/doesn’t happen to someone else. You never learn anything when you already know everything?

      I have posted links with very similar experiences as mine but aaah ... it’s just an illness or parasites. It’s very frustrating dealing with people that think they know and have SEEN it all. I show you the proof but it doesn’t matter.

      I know most of the eggs are probably gone and that is why I did not move the milk crates. I know now what it is but at the beginning I wanted to make sure and hear it from people that actually know thier stuff... But just like the marine biologists told me .. don’t bother with asking on those social media sites because they will say any and everything. Smart guy it seems but I want OTHERS to learn from this .. Koi that are adolescent go through the motions at least of spawning.
      You know most of the eggs are gone now? Ok so all the eggs got ate from the spawn which never did even happen and you never had an ammonia spike or foam etc... great advice you are trying to give in your opinion. Have you ever seen a pond that had fish spawn in it?

    14. #34
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      You know most of the eggs are gone now? Ok so all the eggs got ate from the spawn which never did even happen and you never had an ammonia spike or foam etc... great advice you are trying to give in your opinion. Have you ever seen a pond that had fish spawn in it?
      I guess they are just playing with each other ... right? ... tag or something? Thanks for the advice Kevin

    15. #35
      Matt24's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by headman View Post
      I guess they are just playing with each other ... right? ... tag or something? Thanks for the advice Kevin
      From the videos above that I watched, it looks like two different things.
      (1) Individual koi flashing due to some sort of irritant (itching). Maybe a parasite, maybe not. That flashing is unrelated to spawning.
      (2) Lots of flirting, foreplay behavior. This is the aggressive following, chasing, nuzzling. Sometimes this leads to spawning, sometimes not.

      Most things are not carved in stone in this hobby. There's a lot of "sometimes" and "maybe".

      During the flirting/foreplay phase, the behavior often seems confused and not organized. Mainly, it is males following females, but any koi (male or female) may chase or nuzzle (push against) any other koi (male of female). This may go on for a few hours and then a spawn may happen or they may stop or the flirting/foreplay may go off and on for weeks with no spawning. If it really gets serious and spawning actually begins, typically all the males will focus in on one female and follow her. The other females usually don't participate. But when that female finishes laying her eggs, it may be over, but sometimes the males will go to the next female for another spawn. Rarely, but sometimes the action can get very heavy, even with lots of splashing, with no eggs actually getting laid.

      Others have mentioned some of the signs of spawning, including eggs (obviously), foam on the surface, odor, and ammonia rise. Another sign is that usually one female will suddenly look much thinner than the day before, though on rare occasions a female may only lay a few of her eggs.

      Koi rarely lay eggs unless there is something good to lay eggs on in the pond (plants, leaves, artificial spawning material, or even a net accidentally left in the pond). So if you don't want them to spawn, you can remove plants, etc, and they may flirt but probably won't spawn on the slick liner. If you do want them to spawn you can add more material or just let the lily grow. Water changes or storm fronts sometimes help spawning occur.

      If you ever get interested in intentionally getting new koi from a spawn, check out the Amateur Breeders Forum.

    16. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by headman View Post
      Still think it’s parasites? No flashing for 2 days and now more of this... https://youtu.be/t6LzIbZEqj8
      Most certainly looks like spawning behavior to me, more of them are getting in on the dance too.
      Have you considered there may be parasites and spawning going on here? Both could have been reactions to a big change in temperature. Just saying.

      Quote Originally Posted by headman View Post
      So you are not willing to learn from someone else’s experience? There is very little information about adolescent/pre-mature spawning and to me I would be excited to know more about it. All the “professionals I speak to about it say this ... 90% online say parasites. [U]Also this entire post shows that not many are open to a new experience. I’m an open book and I am anal about everything I do ... I love facts and knowledge. I was hoping this site would help more than all the negative people of FB but I guess it’s all the same. People can learn a lot for each other if they just listen and realize we’re not always right because a book said flashing was parasites or the only time someone seen it was because they are sick (just examples) I have read koi flash/rub on things to clean them off during spawning. I really appreciate the time people have took to help but I believe we shouldn’t just jump to a negative when it could be something new to learn from.
      Simply because people stick to their opinion (parasites vs spawning) based on what they see in a very brief video means they're wrong or they don't want to learn? hmmmmm
      Look at the sentence in bold. Do you see any contradiction there? I'm not going to point it out. You tell me.

      headman, I'm really sorry to hear what seems like annoyance and maybe even disparaging remarks in the last few posts (?) < note the question mark. (Just when I was drafting a 'thank you' note for your earlier nice comments about Koiphen vs Facebook. ah well ) At the very least I know you're disappointed, and I'm trying very hard to understand why. Will you help me?

      *I asked (and i think others did too) How old the koi are.
      *You must admit that the original video wasn't very definitive. I had experience with immature spawning so that's why I suspected. It's just not something as many people see. I had the young immature ones do their thing and then a few days later an actual spawning with my mature males and 2 females. For that matter, not everyone "sees" their spawning in progress; they come out and find the deed already done.

      I don't know what you expect now. Can anyone be wrong? Of course! No matter what forum you're on. I'd venture to say that your "2 local koi keepers and that marine biologist" makes mistakes too. Even koi breeders make mistakes.

      But no one is dismissing it, some were just using the "if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck" it must be a duck, so it's likely parasites.
      Why so negative if someone is suggesting that you check for parasites?
      Let's say you're right and most people here never "got it", so they're spawning ....
      What harm would it have done to check for parasites? If you did, and found that it was parasites, wouldn't it be better to know sooner than later when it got out of hand and your fish could possibly develop other extenuating problems because of the parasites? People weren't telling you to check for parasites "for grins and giggles". They were telling you because they know how bad things can get afterward once parasites really take hold on a fish, eating away at the skin, becoming ulcers, etc, how quickly things can "go south" sometimes.
      On the flip side, if initially everyone went along and nodded their heads saying yeah, you're right they're probably spawning and no one mentioned parasites, and then you DID find parasites and have problems, would you then come back annoyed because they didn't tell you it was probably parasites?

      As Matt24 said on the previous page: "Most things are not carved in stone in this hobby. There's a lot of "sometimes" and "maybe"."

      headman, This forum is comprised of good knowledgeable people trying to help; above all else, I hope you see that, and I do hope you continue to give us updates. I also hope you return and continue to contribute, exchange and learn right along with us.
      Last edited by DarkStar; 12-16-2018 at 10:52 PM.
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    17. #37
      kevin32 is offline Inactivated
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      Well said. Hey I can't even post in the er section. Many feel i should be able to now. I just try to help all I can

    18. #38
      kevin32 is offline Inactivated
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      Quote Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
      Most certainly looks like spawning behavior to me, more of them are getting in on the dance too.
      Have you considered there may be parasites and spawning going on here? Both could have been reactions to a big change in temperature. Just saying.



      Simply because people stick to their opinion (parasites vs spawning) based on what they see in a very brief video means they're wrong or they don't want to learn? hmmmmm
      Look at the sentence in bold. Do you see any contradiction there? I'm not going to point it out. You tell me.

      headman, I'm really sorry to hear what seems like annoyance and somewhat disparaging remarks in the last few posts (?) < note the question mark. (Just when I was drafting a 'thank you' note for your earlier nice comments about Koiphen vs Facebook. ah well ) At the very least I know you're disappointed, and I'm trying very hard to understand why. Will you help me?

      *I asked (and i think others did too) How old the koi are.
      *You must admit that the original video wasn't very definitive. I had experience with immature spawning so that's why I suspected. It's just not something as many people see. I had the young immature ones do their thing and then a few days later an actual spawning with my mature males and 2 females. For that matter, not everyone "sees" their spawning in progress; they come out and find the deed already done.

      I don't know what you expect now. Can anyone be wrong? Of course! No matter what forum you're on. I'd venture to say that your "2 local koi keepers and that marine biologist" makes mistakes too. Even koi breeders make mistakes.

      But no one is dismissing it, some were just using the "if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck" it must be a duck, so it's likely parasites.
      Why so negative if someone is suggesting that you check for parasites?
      Let's say you're right and most people here never "got it", so they're spawning ....
      What harm would it have done to check for parasites? If you did, wouldn't it be better to know sooner than later when it got out of hand and your fish could possibly develop other extenuating problems because of the parasites? People weren't telling you to check for parasites "for grins and giggles". They were telling you because they know how bad things can get afterward once parasites really take hold on a fish, eating away at the skin, becoming ulcers, etc, how quickly things can "go south" sometimes.
      On the flip side, if initially everyone went along and nodded their heads saying yeah, probably spawning and no one mentioned parasites, and then you DID find parasites and have problems, would you then come back annoyed because they didn't tell you it was probably parasites?

      As Matt24 said on the previous page: "Most things are not carved in stone in this hobby. There's a lot of "sometimes" and "maybe"."

      headman, This forum is comprised of good knowledgeable people trying to help; above all else, I hope you see that, and I do hope you continue to give us updates. I also hope you continue to contribute, exchange and learn right along with us.
      I stated the same thing really and will stick to it.. I feel im pretty experienced as.well as others

    19. #39
      headman is offline Senior Member
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      Thanks for the post ... I am not by any means trying to take anything from anyone ... I am the novice here and I know it We all have to learn as we go. I appreciate everyone’s input for sure even if it seemed I did not. well the water temp is around 64 and the spawning has stopped. There was a few days there when the water was up to 70 and they were chasing each other around. The flashing did start up again unfortunately. All of this started when the temperature dropped for a few days and then went back up ... that same day happen to do a water change and added salt as well. I also added a water lily fertilizer tablet. I did check the salt % yesterday and it was around .2%. I did change some water yesterday but I seem some flashing today on my camera(working). I bought a microscope and a pan net to check for parasites. We tried to catch one yesterday evening but they are to **** quick and we have the wrong net. I should have the microscope Friday. Thanks again

    20. #40
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      Quote Originally Posted by headman View Post
      Thanks for the post ... I am not by any means trying to take anything from anyone ... I am the novice here and I know it We all have to learn as we go. I appreciate everyone’s input for sure even if it seemed I did not. well the water temp is around 64 and the spawning has stopped. There was a few days there when the water was up to 70 and they were chasing each other around. The flashing did start up again unfortunately. All of this started when the temperature dropped for a few days and then went back up ... that same day happen to do a water change and added salt as well. I also added a water lily fertilizer tablet. I did check the salt % yesterday and it was around .2%. I did change some water yesterday but I seem some flashing today on my camera(working). I bought a microscope and a pan net to check for parasites. We tried to catch one yesterday evening but they are to **** quick and we have the wrong net. I should have the microscope Friday. Thanks again
      .2 salt can kill your lily plants. Might want to put them in a separate tub and get the salt level down. Maybe in cooler water the salt wont affect them. I know my water lettuce didbt like. 3 salt

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