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    Thread: 2018 Showa female and Kohaku male

    1. #1
      Roger's Avatar
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      2018 Showa female and Kohaku male

      I have two very fat females from my previous Omosako shiro/ Dainichi Sakura spawn. I separated them today 8/28/18, they need to drop their eggs or they will pop. I'll give them 4 days, hopefully they will spawn. I am using two different Kohaku male body types from Hasegawa. I believe they represent the Manzo and Tomoin old bloodline.

      The white on the female showa's are very high quality, I will try to keep some whiter Kohaku fry. Black should be Showa and yellow/white should be Kohaku fry. However, I don't think I can get the Omosako white on to the Hasegawa Kohaku fry because they start off black, but its worth a try. I think the fry mix will be 33% from the female showa, 33% from the Kohaku males, and 33% cross. I am using the Kohaku to strengthen the red pattern on the Showa 16% cross and maybe by freak chance transfer the Omoako white on to the Kohaku 16% cross.

      I have been thinking about fry filtration since my previous spawn and I have come up with a possible solution. Near the bottom of my tank end there is an inch and a quarter drain hole. I put a cage around the hole and covered it with half inch blue rock. The hole connects to a Rubber-made trash can filled with bio balls and a 600 gallon submersible pump. The blue rock will prevent the fry from getting sucked in, it is packed about about 12 inches above the drain hole.

      In addition, I plan to use 4 sponge filters and I plan to clean them daily. The sponge filter will be used to suck up the fry poop and not for bio filtration. I will post some pictures.
      Last edited by Roger; 08-28-2018 at 07:54 AM.

    2. #2
      dragonfly1976 is offline Senior Member
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      Nice to hear from you Roger. Keep us posted on this batch. You should have some nice ones.

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      The mad scientist

      I’m watching



    4. #4
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      Hi guys, something terrible happen last night. One of my showa females died, belly up. It was getting to fat, and I was concerned. I think it may have died from the left over copper sulfate I used to kill snails. However, the male was still strong and I did a 50% water change before placing them in the tank, so it may have been lack of oxygen. I was planning on setting up my air pump the next day, but its to late.

      I wanted to post some pictures , but I can't find the cord to attach to my computer. I might have to buy a new camera.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
      Hi guys, something terrible happen last night. One of my showa females died, belly up. It was getting to fat, and I was concerned. I think it may have died from the left over copper sulfate I used to kill snails. However, the male was still strong and I did a 50% water change before placing them in the tank, so it may have been lack of oxygen. I was planning on setting up my air pump the next day, but its to late.
      It's great to hear from you and to know you are thinking of a spawn, but very sorry to hear about the loss of that showa. I know that's painful. Are you still planning to spawn the others?

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      Matt24, I still have another semi fat Omosako/Sakura (black dragon) female paired with a Tomin male Kohaku with persimmon color from Hasegawa and another male Kohaku with dark red color from Fukazawa. However, its been two days now and no activity. they seem to be hiding and acting fearful. I have not been feeding them and I am doing water exchanges in the evening. Its about three days after the full moon. However, the moon is not visible due to bad weather and the temperature is hot and humid all the way through until morning.

      I cycled this tank with clear industrial grade ammonia from Ace Hardware store about a month ago. The bio filtration can neutralize a quart of ammonia with in a day. I did not cycle the other tank that killed my other female. I was planning on cycling it, but got ahead of myself.

      I wanted to use frozen daphnia to start a culture, but all the pet stores here were out, so I ordered dry daphnia eggs online. One supplier online wanted me to fill out an agriculture form, but I found one that by past the red tape. I just got a delivery and placed them in water. I hope they are the bigger daphnia instead of the smaller type. It will probably take a few months before the culture is large enough to feed any fry.

      At the beginning, I will use egg yolk and switch to decapsulated brine shrimp eggs (non hatchable), then try fry paste recipes and supplement with live daphnia.
      Last edited by Roger; 08-31-2018 at 04:25 AM.

    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
      copper sulfate I used to kill snails ...
      Do you usually see snails as a problem, such as clogging up your pump or something? I've never done anything to try to control snails. I just wait until the koi get big enough to knock their numbers back.

      Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
      ... its been two days now and no activity. they seem to be hiding and acting fearful. I have not been feeding them and I am doing water exchanges in the evening. Its about three days after the full moon. However, the moon is not visible due to bad weather and the temperature is hot and humid all the way through until morning. ...
      Hope they will get to going soon. Mine have often spawned after only being together for a day, but several times they have taken a week or two. I have not seen strong correlation to moon phases.

      Details on temps, moon phases, and time together below for anyone interested:

      One spawn in each of the last 7 years: All but one (noted below) were in an 1800 gallon spawning / nursery pond that I keep running year round.

      5/28/2012: 75F dropping to 71F [7 days before full moon (half moon)] This group had been together for 10 days.
      7/6/2013: 73F dropping to 71F [2 days before new moon (5% moon)] This group had been together for 1 day.
      5/8/2014: 68F dropping to 65F [6 days before full moon (60% moon)] This group had been together for 6 days.
      5/9/2015: 64F dropping to 63F [5 days after full moon (2/3 moon)] This group had been together for about 2 weeks and had let a full moon go by.
      6/24/2016: 75F dropping to 74F [3 days after full moon (3/4 moon)] This group had been together in the tub for 1 day. However, they had been together in the little spawning pond for over 2 months prior to that and had let 3 full moons go by.
      4/14/2017: 62F dropping to 61F [2 days after full moon (95% moon)] This group had been together for 1 day.
      6/3/2018: 77F dropping to 72F [4 days after full moon (70% moon)] This group had been together for 1 day.

      There were also a couple of times when the group I wanted would not spawn, and I had to bring in a B-team.

      Though I have tried water changes to get koi to spawn, none of these spawns had been closely preceded by a water change (other than moving the fish to the different pond).

      They have all been outdoors with heating subject to the weather. The temperature usually rises in the day and drops at night. As you can see, there is a fairly wide range of temperatures.

    8. #8
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      Matt, there were so many medium and tiny snails in my home made bio filter, they look like they were eating the good bacteria. It freak me out because I have never tried to kill them before and local pet stores did not have anything to kill them. I tried hydrated lime, but it did not work as well as the fish farms reported and its hard to get the residual out of tank. Cupramine buffered active copper from Seachem killed them right away. Its a parasite treatment for odium, ich etc..

      I don't think the Cupramine killed my koi, I thought the filtration was ready because I used a handful of bio balls from my other cycled filter a week before, but when I tested the water recently it had an extreme amount of ammonia. This tank did not cycle yet, and the koi was suffering from extreme egg impaction, so in its weaken state it could not handle the ammonia. I had similar experiences with the people on this tread http://koianswers.com/discussion/30/...ems-in-kois/p2

      I have not tried Ovaprim, I need to research some advertisement in some old koi magazines. I saw something for spawning koi, not sure if its the same product. I did a water change late last night, but still no activity. I may have to wait another month for my white red eye koi from my previous Akame Kigoi/Kohaku spawn. This white koi was very fat and I placed her in the same tank alone and the next day she dropped her eggs. I did not have a chance to put a male in with her, so this time around I did not give the Showa female any alone time. If they don't spawn with in one week, I will take out the males, and spawning mats, and leave the Showa by her self.
      Last edited by Roger; 08-29-2018 at 05:09 PM.

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      Usually a light over the tank also helps are you using one

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      Quote Originally Posted by Orlando View Post
      Usually a light over the tank also helps are you using one
      Like an artificial moon? Hmm … had not thought of that.

    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      Like an artificial moon? Hmm … had not thought of that.
      Or is it artificial sunlight?

    12. #12
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      I've been doing some research on induced spawning injections and found two common ones. One is Ovaprim and the other is Pituitary acetone powder from carp. KSU University has a video out demonstrating the Pituitary carp powder, but they don't give out the dose ratio, we have to buy the $3.95 kindle eBook for the details. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ96U1tppsk
      Ovaprim has a few negative reviews from http://koianswers.com/discussion/30/...ems-in-kois/p2
      Last edited by Roger; 08-30-2018 at 02:45 AM.

    13. #13
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      I can leave the spot light on outside, but I don't think the light will trigger them. I think its related to a change in temperature.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      Like an artificial moon? Hmm … had not thought of that.
      I've always use it and it helps, not 100% for some folks I have a friend that recently she tried it the koi didn't spawn but she had already been trying for about 2 weeks so I suspect something wasn't just right.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
      I can leave the spot light on outside, but I don't think the light will trigger them. I think its related to a change in temperature.
      A few bags of ice in the evening with some prime is also helpfull

    16. #16
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      This female is not as fat as the one that died and hopefully she doesn't get that way. I am still feeling depressed about the one that died, it took me a few years to get her from tiny fry to 22 inches. I did not want to breed the koi that died, it was show quality, to bad she got too fat before I realized what was going on.

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      Last edited by Roger; 08-31-2018 at 08:38 PM.

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      I think on the third pic you're showing bio filtration ok but am a little confused as to the second picture, I see gravel on the bottom and some white area's, that's a beautiful koi hope she spawns for you.

    18. #18
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      These are the males, the one from Fukazawa has blood red color and the one from Hasegawa (Tomoin) has persimmon color. The white on three of these koi are all different. Its hard to describe them. The showa female inherited the Omosako Utsiri white from her mother. It had a jumbo sister which grew two times larger then all the rest, it probably inherited the genes from the Dainichi Sakura male parent, that was my chosen oyagoi, but a stray cat some how drowned in my pond while I was fasting them, and made the water polluted. Since I wasn't feeding them it made no sense to check up on them daily. By the time I found the dead cat it was floating with a bunch of dead koi.


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      Last edited by Roger; 08-31-2018 at 08:18 PM.

    19. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by Orlando View Post
      I think on the third pic you're showing bio filtration ok but am a little confused as to the second picture, I see gravel on the bottom and some white area's, that's a beautiful koi hope she spawns for you.
      I am cycling this tank for koi fry.
      The blue tank is connected to the trash can. The gravel is the main bio filtration and it is covering the in take. I have a 90 elbow on the bottom of the trash can that circulates the water around on the bottom, and I have a 3 inch round air stone in the middle that lifts the water up onto the floating bio balls for additional filtration.

      Today, I poured about two cups of ammonia in this tank to cycle it. I took an ammonia reading right after, it was dark green, so my testing is now active. I'll check it again tomorrow. I know there is a small colony of ammonia eating bacteria present. Because I checked the ammonia level after I found the dead koi, it was very high, but it was neutralized with in two days.

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      Last edited by Roger; 08-31-2018 at 08:23 PM.

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      I'll try putting some frozen water containers up top the planter in the evening tomorrow, and I'll set up a florescent light, since it stop raining.

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      Last edited by Roger; 08-31-2018 at 03:25 AM.

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