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    Thread: Matt's Showa Spawn 2018

    1. #21
      OCkoiFan's Avatar
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      Great work Matt
      Can’t wait to see them come together
      M.Nguyen


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    2. #22
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      Nice Job on the log info Matt. Sorry I'm late on the Congrats not sure how I missed this thread when you first posted. Looks like your off to a great start. Have fun!!

    3. #23
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      Matt, whenever i see fry at this stage, i'm reminded of little green men. lol. i wonder if fry were the model for that alien depiction. They've definitely put on size since the last photos. When do you expect them to show color/pattern?



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    4. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by OCkoiFan View Post
      Great work Matt
      Can’t wait to see them come together
      It's hard to be patient, waiting for them to get big enough to color up. Thanks Mr. Nguyen.

      Quote Originally Posted by FRK View Post
      Nice Job on the log info Matt. Sorry I'm late on the Congrats not sure how I missed this thread when you first posted. Looks like your off to a great start. Have fun!!
      Thanks Mike. I'm looking forward to yours too. I love the process as challenging as it is.

      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      Matt, whenever i see fry at this stage, i'm reminded of little green men. lol. i wonder if fry were the model for that alien depiction. They've definitely put on size since the last photos. When do you expect them to show color/pattern?
      They do sort look like they want to phone home.

      In the past, I have focused heavily on the dark ones, but this year, with over 85% light ones, I may try to grow some of those too. Other than one tobi I raised, I have not dealt much with kohaku fry. So I was reviewing Super Kindai's 2009 kohaku spawn. Sounds like you start to see yellow and white patterns forming on kohaku at about 1.25" - 1.5". I guess depending on the growth, which varies with numbers, temperature, feeding, etc ..., that could be as little as 5 weeks or more than a couple of months. At that point you probably can't tell too much about the final pattern, but can at least pick out the shiro muji and aka muji, which I understand is usually a large majority.

      I think the showa and utsuri color/patterns develop a little more slowly. I'll have to check my old notes, but it seems like around 2" you start to be able to see a lot of pattern formation. Though sumi can still shift a lot for months to come.

    5. #25
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      Some folks may not have seen what I raise the fry in. Here are a couple of photos taken a year ago.

      First is the 1800 gallon little pond where the spawning and raising happens. It is normally covered with orchard netting that I had pulled back at the time of this photo. As you can tell, it is quite shady, which may not be ideal for fry, but I like the trees. It is about 9' by 14' with sloped sides and about 27" deep. The biological filter is a 100 gallon stock tank filled with plastic strapping material with a 3200 gph submersible pump.

      Also below is a 500 gallon stock tank set in the ground and filled to about 350 gallons where I plan to put any that get big too fast and become a threat to their siblings. The biological filter is a ~30 gallon trash can filled with plastic strapping material with a ~500 gph submersible pump.

      I keep both the little pond and the tub running year round with fish in them. So the biological filters keep running. When I am not raising fry in them, I may use them for quarantine if needed. In the spring when the little keepers get to be about a year old, I move them to my main pond (12,000 gallons) and move the adults for the upcoming spawning to the little pond.

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      Matt: Here are some links to some of Mark Gardners videos from Purdin koi farm and they're Showa and Kohaku fry selections. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NOvphsUcj4, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mas-PsYgJGg&t=50s. Paterns should start to show in 7-8 weeks and.
      Last edited by FRK; 06-23-2018 at 12:48 PM.

    7. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by FRK View Post
      Matt: Here are some links to some of Mark Gardners videos from Purdin koi farm and they're Showa and Kohaku fry selections. … Paterns should start to show in 7-8 weeks ....
      Thanks Mike. I see they get a nice kohaku here and there in the showa spawns. I got to following some links and came across this other one of Mark Gardner visiting Purdin koi farm and looking at little ones from a showa spawn. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcJuUKCz6xk Interesting that because of the time consuming process and shortage of labor at the farm, they do not separate the out the dark fry at a few days. Instead, they grow the kohaku and other light types with the showa and utsuri for a few weeks before doing the first selection. I did not know that any professional breeders did that.
      Last edited by Matt24; 06-25-2018 at 07:53 AM.

    8. #28
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      Well pretty sure the Japanese sort the black ones as fry. Purdins said it was just to time consuming. I emailed asking about the two Kohaku in the video and they said they were not going to keep them. Just holding for a learning observation. I don't believe you could ever honestly represent to a customer that a Kohaku that came from a Showa spawn was a true Kohaku.

    9. #29
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      That being said and from what I think yoiu are breeding for your own enjoyment and learning You may well get some beautiful fish/Kohaku from your spawn. Here are some criteria I have picked up from watching Purdin videos. Even for showa you apply the Japanese saying "It all begins and ends with Kohaku". Paterns energe from 4-6 weeks. Of course for showa you need a sign of Sumi but skin quality (shine) and Kohaku patern mater most in the early selections. For Kohaku skin quality (shine) and patern quality in the early selection.

    10. #30
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      I tried to watch Japanese videos of they're fry selection and found it very dificult to learn anything. The language barrier was part of it, also all I coulkd see was was someone tossing this fish to the left and that fish to the right with no explination to which they kept and which not.

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    11. #31
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      I was not able to get a spawn this year so I am going to be cheering for you from the sideline. Below is a video of my females two weeks after bringing tham home and on the morning before I put them in to the spawing baskets. You can see they do not apear to be eggy combined with the stress of transport bring them home and we were having record high temp at the time. I left them in the spawning baskets for three days and had very little sign of interest from the males. I am dissapointed but at the same time I still have a lot of work to do before my operation is ready. Keep your photos flowing and share the joy.
      https://youtu.be/k-fqj5NLpkw

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    13. #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by FRK View Post
      I was not able to get a spawn this year so I am going to be cheering for you from the sideline. Below is a video of my females two weeks after bringing tham home and on the morning before I put them in to the spawing baskets. You can see they do not apear to be eggy combined with the stress of transport bring them home and we were having record high temp at the time. I left them in the spawning baskets for three days and had very little sign of interest from the males. I am dissapointed but at the same time I still have a lot of work to do before my operation is ready. Keep your photos flowing and share the joy.
      https://youtu.be/k-fqj5NLpkw
      Sorry to hear that your group won't be spawning this year. I would have loved to have seen what they could make. I see what you mean about your showa not looking very eggy, but that great kohaku is so wide, it seems like she would have to be carrying. I would be inclined to give them more time, water changes, etc, hoping they would go, even if it takes until mid-July. But I understand that you have a lot to do anyway with such a large scale project.

      Today was Day 22 since hatching. I dipped some up for a look and some photos. They have thickened up some, but most are still around half an inch, not growing as fast as I would like, probably not helped by the large numbers. Of more concern is that with sample dips, I am finding the dark ones to only be anywhere between 15% of the scoop to as low as 8%, with 12% being typical. I decided to move about 100 of the dark ones to the blue tub that is filled to about 350 gallons. Perhaps they will grow faster in there with the smaller group.

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    14. #34
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      Matt, i think you're right about moving to less-populated tub.
      when i split up my tosai, 250 went back to their own 135k pond, no adult supervision.
      the other 500 were split between the other two ponds which were already pushing the per capita per gallonage formula.
      No surprise, most of the kids with pond to themselves are gaining in all directions, while the others, competing for food and watery, real estate, still look about six months younger.
      You keep such good records. i'm looking forward to see how this move works out for you.



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    15. #35
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      I suspect you are right Max, that the smaller numerical group will grow faster. It's also a precaution to perhaps protect more dark ones from yellow tobi that may develop.

      It's Day 29 after hatching, and growth is not what I'd hoped. Most of those in the pond are still around 1/2" to 5/8", with the odd larger ones 3/4". The larger ones are just starting to show a hint of a kohaku pattern, but still far from anything I can judge for the first selection. I look forward to getting the muji out, so the others can grow faster, but I guess I will just have to be patient. I have yet to compare the growth of the few in the tub versus the many in the pond, probably too soon.

      I drilled holes in the sides of some frisbees and used string to hang them in the water from the boards that support the net. Then I used a rock in each to make the frisbee sink. Then I put a little of their high protein seafood paste onto each frisbee, in effort to promote growth. To this point, they don't seem to have caught on much. I am still scattering some of the seafood paste around the edges of the little pond. When they reach a certain size, they typically figure it out and then attack the paste on the plate or frisbee in large numbers, but they are not there yet.

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      The ones with the black eyes have caught my attention, looking good so far.

    17. #37
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      keep us posted.



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    18. #38
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      16 days after separating the 100 dark fry (showa/utsuri prospects) from the thousands in the little pond and putting them into the 350 gallon tub, they have on average grown much better than the larger population. It is hard to tell how many in the dark water, but about half seem to be a little over an inch with several 1.25"-1.5", and the largest 1.75". Yet nearly half are still under 1" with many about 3/4". That size differential is starting to be concerning. Tobi have really not been much of an issue, and I want to keep it that way.

      In the little pond, it looks like only a couple of dozen are a little over an inch, with the other thousands an inch or under.

      So 38 days after hatching, I have now made the tub the home for the larger ones and the little pond the home for the smaller ones. I moved about 40 smaller dark ones back to the little pond with the thousands of small ones, a super-majority of which are light (kohaku prospects), and I moved about 20 larger light ones to the tub with the larger dark ones.

      They are all getting better at cleaning the seafood blend off of their hanging frisbees. So hopefully growth will improve. The larger ones are showing a little color/pattern development, and I am even seeing a little of that in those that are 3/4", but you really have to look close. Too small for selection just yet. Still watching and waiting ... and feeding ....
      Last edited by Matt24; 07-14-2018 at 09:02 PM.

    19. #39
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      Sounds great Matt! Looking forward to some photos later.

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      Yep I’m waiting for pics too .

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