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  • Page 9 of 9 FirstFirst ... 6789
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    Thread: Truth In Numbers...Water Pump Testing Station

    1. #161
      Grumpy's Avatar
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      This whole thing was started to help beginner and intermediate pond people find the right pump. PERIOD. You throw so many **** numbers up that it makes about as much sense as the advertisers.
      Hobbyists should be able to see the flow/gph at zero, two, five, and ten feet. And electricity costs per thousand gallons at each of those heights. PERIOD.
      You want to go off whirling in a sea of numbers then go ahead, but do not forget what the purpose is FIRST AND FOREMOST. Helping People.


      WOW, ... so much negativity. Confusing... aren't you that wanted this study?? You want the answers, but not the study behind it??

      A logical decision on pump selection is all about numbers. You asked for the study, but would not help, now you go after the person who is bringing in the suppliers and making an honest effort to arrive at some answers. It is not difficult to arrive at the results you request, but it does take you a few minutes to review the results.

    2. #162
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      Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
      This whole thing was started to help beginner and intermediate pond people find the right pump. PERIOD. You throw so many **** numbers up that it makes about as much sense as the advertisers.
      Hobbyists should be able to see the flow/gph at zero, two, five, and ten feet. And electricity costs per thousand gallons at each of those heights. PERIOD.
      You want to go off whirling in a sea of numbers then go ahead, but do not forget what the purpose is FIRST AND FOREMOST. Helping People.


      WOW, ... so much negativity. Confusing... aren't you that wanted this study?? You want the answers, but not the study behind it??

      A logical decision on pump selection is all about numbers. You asked for the study, but would not help, now you go after the person who is bringing in the suppliers and making an honest effort to arrive at some answers. It is not difficult to arrive at the results you request, but it does take you a few minutes to review the results.
      Well said

    3. #163
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      Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
      This whole thing was started to help beginner and intermediate pond people find the right pump. PERIOD. You throw so many **** numbers up that it makes about as much sense as the advertisers.
      Hobbyists should be able to see the flow/gph at zero, two, five, and ten feet. And electricity costs per thousand gallons at each of those heights. PERIOD.
      You want to go off whirling in a sea of numbers then go ahead, but do not forget what the purpose is FIRST AND FOREMOST. Helping People.


      WOW, ... so much negativity. Confusing... aren't you that wanted this study?? You want the answers, but not the study behind it??

      A logical decision on pump selection is all about numbers. You asked for the study, but would not help, now you go after the person who is bringing in the suppliers and making an honest effort to arrive at some answers. It is not difficult to arrive at the results you request, but it does take you a few minutes to review the results.
      lol you are full of filter waste. and have no idea what Zac and I are about. Butt out. You and that other poster. Quit attacking people. stick to the topic. I am not what you think..and you are not what you think. I can talk to Zac the way I do because he knows me, and I him. Oh and by the way I gave him 50 bucks to buy the equipment when he asked for people that wanted this to help out. Go read his original post on this thread. he started this thread because of a thread I had started about needing to get the truth out about pond pumps. What did you give?
      And I pretty much generated the original thread on this topic to get Zac to start doing this. it is right here on this site if you bothered to look before you started yipping. So just shut up. not because you annoy me, but because you are completely undeniably wrong. Oh and once again. I gave him $50 because I appreciated him stepping up to get this done...what did you do? besides talk crap that is completely false.
      Last edited by lukef; 05-18-2018 at 11:22 PM.
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    4. #164
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      Well said
      and it seems another poster feels he is right, but has no clue what the thread was supposed to be about.....it was started to help the biginning and intermediate hobbyists get the truth on pond pumps...read this thread before you make another foolish, "mis-informed" post...
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...and-statistics
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    5. #165
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      Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
      This whole thing was started to help beginner and intermediate pond people find the right pump. PERIOD. You throw so many **** numbers up that it makes about as much sense as the advertisers.
      Hobbyists should be able to see the flow/gph at zero, two, five, and ten feet. And electricity costs per thousand gallons at each of those heights. PERIOD.
      You want to go off whirling in a sea of numbers then go ahead, but do not forget what the purpose is FIRST AND FOREMOST. Helping People.


      WOW, ... so much negativity. Confusing... aren't you that wanted this study?? You want the answers, but not the study behind it??

      A logical decision on pump selection is all about numbers. You asked for the study, but would not help, now you go after the person who is bringing in the suppliers and making an honest effort to arrive at some answers. It is not difficult to arrive at the results you request, but it does take you a few minutes to review the results.
      From that thread, this is from Zac. And will inform all the people that think they should be talking crap that I was the impetus for Zac to take on this huge endeavor.
      "Well, I have caved in out of curiosity so I am going to incorporate a flow testing rig into my CFKS display. I have to build a 4' diameter x 4' deep holding tank (to act as the pond) to display my Gravity Fed ZacoDraco and G-Shower filters so I figured I could go all out and incorporate the flow testing rig into it as well. This will give us a a reservoir of at least 350 gallons (based on the water level) so we should have plenty of space for the water to settle down before getting sucked into the measuring tube. I will not be able to do anything for airlift testing but I will make it usable for testing water pumps. I haven't figured out the exacts of the test rig, but it will be based on BWG's idea and the head pressure will be artificially created by a 4" ball valve. The head will be measured with a pressure gauge placed directly after the water pump. This way it can measure all of the pressure after to pump up to the discharge port. As of now I think I will use a 6" measuring tube coming out of the reservoir and place the ultrasonic flow sensors on this pipe. Then reduce down to a 4" valve right before the pump and then use a rubber coupler for the pump connections. I will provide exact measurements for the 4" rubber coupling dimensions so anyone wanting to test a pump would increase to 4" on both sides of the pump and it will slide right into the testing rig without any onsite modifications. Just close both ball valves and remove the Ferncos.

      So with all that being said, I would appreciate some donations for the ultrasonic flow meter and digital pressure gauge. Based on what I have seen so far we are looking at around $500 for those two components and not to sound too much like a cheap ***, but I am already putting up some big money for the display so I don't want to add all of that to my costs. If you feel like this is something you would like to support then you can gift me a donation through PayPal to Zac@DeepwaterKoi.com I will start a thread in my marketplace about the progression of the testing rig and I will display a list of donors (unless they want to remain anonymous). Once the koi show is over I can set this up in my warehouse and continue modifying it to meet the needs of other flow testing."
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    6. #166
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      Well said
      Oh and kevin...do you feel better now that I talked straight with YOU about you having way to many dam koi in that set-up? So you finally are selling them off, and getting your shite together. Would it have happened if I beat around the bush like so many of your real friends? They tried to be nice about it and you wouldn't wipe the shite out of your eyes till I told you plain an simple...JUST LIKE I AM TALKING TO Zac. Zac was on the same page as me in the beginning. He wanted to make it easier for Hobbyists to make informed decisions. I know what happened. he saw all these numbers and got mesmerized by them. But he needed to be reined in. that is all my post is doing...trying to help the hobbyist, and get Zac from going too far down a rabbit hole where he would not be practical.
      Most hobbyists can't sift through all the numbers and theories and spreadsheets that Zac has started to create. Too much good shite is still too much shite. It needs to be kept simple for most of us. Hel, and I am not meaning the brainiac me, I am talking about the good ol boy me. i can crush/crunch numbers. There just isn't a need to. And physics was always fun for me; It was the real reason I learned more math. Just so I could express what I understood. So it isn't me personally. The goal was to create a source where people could go to get the info needed to get a pump that they could see they knew was right.
      Having huge spreadsheets looks good...discussing every aspect is an annoyance and hindrance to that as well... But it does NOT help the hobby like presenting the data in a simple way.
      It is SIMPLE...
      Create graphs that give the amount of GPH/flow for each pump at 0, 2, 5, and 10 ft of head. give the amount of electricity used in Kw/1000 gallons at each head....
      KISS KISS.
      Last edited by lukef; 05-19-2018 at 03:02 PM.
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    7. #167
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      Luke you had nothing to do with me rehoming the tosai from last year and I was just waiting for spring time. But yes you were correct I had to many fish and we all knew that.

      I do appreciate all the testing and will be fun to see the flowfriend being tested at my current setup. I just don't get why you do all this name calling and stuff but that is your deal bro.

    8. #168
      wingrider is offline Senior Member
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      It is great to see a Mfr. take part in this. Tip of the fin to Lyann and Advantage for stepping up and providing pumps for this. All this prompted me to become a member.

      I have wound up going through 2 new pumps in less than a month based on Mfg. claims and neither meeting their spec(s). Even after detailed phone conversations with them (on both pumps) down to every type of fitting and length/diameter of every inch of pipe from inlet to the output of the waterfall. Both new pumps both came up short by about 40%. I wanted to believe in them because I have a tight space where the motor resides and each of the higher volume/head pump(s) were supposed to "just work". My original pump went 14 years flawlessly and I expected the same quality. I'm disappointed in these 2 new ones and out serious funds (twice) trying just trying to upgrade after a pump failure.

      I wanted to chime in that the commitment by Advantage to this effort by Zac does have a payoff. The fact that Advantage offers a solar pump solution was something I had no idea about and may even consider while I review the results of this pump testing. I already have to unload the first replacement pump so I'm prepared to unload both and consider one from Advantage.

    9. #169
      Zac Penn is offline Supporting Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by wingrider View Post
      It is great to see a Mfr. take part in this. Tip of the fin to Lyann and Advantage for stepping up and providing pumps for this. All this prompted me to become a member.

      I have wound up going through 2 new pumps in less than a month based on Mfg. claims and neither meeting their spec(s). Even after detailed phone conversations with them (on both pumps) down to every type of fitting and length/diameter of every inch of pipe from inlet to the output of the waterfall. Both new pumps both came up short by about 40%. I wanted to believe in them because I have a tight space where the motor resides and each of the higher volume/head pump(s) were supposed to "just work". My original pump went 14 years flawlessly and I expected the same quality. I'm disappointed in these 2 new ones and out serious funds (twice) trying just trying to upgrade after a pump failure.

      I wanted to chime in that the commitment by Advantage to this effort by Zac does have a payoff. The fact that Advantage offers a solar pump solution was something I had no idea about and may even consider while I review the results of this pump testing. I already have to unload the first replacement pump so I'm prepared to unload both and consider one from Advantage.
      Glad you are here and sorry to hear of your less than advertised experiences. It has happened to all of us, and we generally have thought it comes down to being poor judges of total dynamic head losses, but the testing so far has shown that may not be the case. Having a database of different pumps being exposed to the same situations and data recorded with the same flow meters and pressure gauges will show us a real apple to apples comparison of the different pumps in the same HP range. Hopefully you can find the right pump for your application this way.
      Zac Penn.... Please sign-up for our MAILING LIST HERE
      904-288-6199
      Zac@DeepwaterKoi.com
      www.DeepwaterKoi.com


    10. #170
      wingrider is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
      Glad you are here and sorry to hear of your less than advertised experiences. It has happened to all of us, and we generally have thought it comes down to being poor judges of total dynamic head losses, but the testing so far has shown that may not be the case. Having a database of different pumps being exposed to the same situations and data recorded with the same flow meters and pressure gauges will show us a real apple to apples comparison of the different pumps in the same HP range. Hopefully you can find the right pump for your application this way.
      Thank you for the feedback. It was indeed frustrating to start with (rounding output out of respect to a Mfg.) a 4k capability pump hoping to get to 2k at the waterfall and that seemed to work out well for years. New Pump 1 was in the 5500-5900 range hoping to add a small skimmer and / or increase my waterfall flow. My output wound up the same as what I had out of the 4k pump that died. Mfr. phone calls confirmed the math that I had done in selecting the replacement unit but the results didn't add up. I decided to go all out and purchased pump 2- an 8000-8500 unit and the output was only marginally better. To be clear, I know I have long runs from the pond, through the Ultma II, UV and back to the pond. I did the math and it was verified by my calls to the Mfr.. They even took my number and spent about half an hour before calling me back with what they thought of what to select. [edit: this is all past the pump and pre filter- no blockages in line.]

      I hope this doesn't feel like I'm pulling this off topic, but I wanted to share my experience. Not unlike XXXXXXXX Reports, consumers are often spending more and more on more efficient or powerful pumps and accessories and need some way to know what they are really getting. It can be frustrating when claims made by any manufacturer (be it a dishwasher or pond pump) do not meet what is being advertised. I feel "better" realizing I'm not alone, but this problem shouldn't exist. Zac is on it and everyone in the community will benefit.
      Last edited by wingrider; 05-21-2018 at 11:57 AM.

    11. #171
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      Yes, the variable speed requires 230v power.
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    12. #172
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      I sent two single speed pumps, an ES3500 and an ESS6400 to Zac. We will hold off on the variable as we have a new line of dual voltage motors under development that also run on solar. When these are ready, I will submit two pumps. I look forward to seeing what Zac's analysis shows and encourage other manufacturers to participate as well. Thanks again for trying to bring some clarity to the pond pump world.
      Lyann M. Courant
      CEO
      lyann@advantageman.com
      616 S. Santa Fe Street
      Santa Ana, CA 92705
      714-505-1166 ext. 101
      FAX: 714-505-1160

    13. #173
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      Quote Originally Posted by Advantageman View Post
      I sent two single speed pumps, an ES3500 and an ESS6400 to Zac. We will hold off on the variable as we have a new line of dual voltage motors under development that also run on solar. When these are ready, I will submit two pumps. I look forward to seeing what Zac's analysis shows and encourage other manufacturers to participate as well. Thanks again for trying to bring some clarity to the pond pump world.
      Thanks for donating these pumps. I look forward to gathering the data. I will be testing a FF, and these two pumps soon so hopefully I can get a free day to knock all three out next week.
      Zac Penn.... Please sign-up for our MAILING LIST HERE
      904-288-6199
      Zac@DeepwaterKoi.com
      www.DeepwaterKoi.com


    14. #174
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      Quote Originally Posted by wingrider View Post
      Thank you for the feedback. It was indeed frustrating to start with (rounding output out of respect to a Mfg.) a 4k capability pump hoping to get to 2k at the waterfall and that seemed to work out well for years. New Pump 1 was in the 5500-5900 range hoping to add a small skimmer and / or increase my waterfall flow. My output wound up the same as what I had out of the 4k pump that died. Mfr. phone calls confirmed the math that I had done in selecting the replacement unit but the results didn't add up. I decided to go all out and purchased pump 2- an 8000-8500 unit and the output was only marginally better. To be clear, I know I have long runs from the pond, through the Ultma II, UV and back to the pond. I did the math and it was verified by my calls to the Mfr.. They even took my number and spent about half an hour before calling me back with what they thought of what to select. [edit: this is all past the pump and pre filter- no blockages in line.]

      I hope this doesn't feel like I'm pulling this off topic, but I wanted to share my experience. Not unlike XXXXXXXX Reports, consumers are often spending more and more on more efficient or powerful pumps and accessories and need some way to know what they are really getting. It can be frustrating when claims made by any manufacturer (be it a dishwasher or pond pump) do not meet what is being advertised. I feel "better" realizing I'm not alone, but this problem shouldn't exist. Zac is on it and everyone in the community will benefit.
      Wingrider, I have been in the hobby so long I can remember people actually using pumps that were designed for dishwashers. it'd be great if pump manufacturers ALL sent their pumps to be tested to the SAME guy. And that SAME guy was known to the sector that buys those pumps. Zac's about as close as we can get.
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    15. #175
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
      Thanks for donating these pumps. I look forward to gathering the data. I will be testing a FF, and these two pumps soon so hopefully I can get a free day to knock all three out next week.
      Any updates ?

    16. #176
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
      Thanks for donating these pumps. I look forward to gathering the data. I will be testing a FF, and these two pumps soon so hopefully I can get a free day to knock all three out next week.
      Did you ever run the test with the advantage pumps?

    17. #177
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      Sorry guys....I have just been to slammed with work to get back to pump testing. Once I get some new help, and find some free time I will get back to it and share the results.
      Zac Penn.... Please sign-up for our MAILING LIST HERE
      904-288-6199
      Zac@DeepwaterKoi.com
      www.DeepwaterKoi.com


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