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    Thread: Selecting a Sanke...

    1. #21
      Ray Jordan is offline The Rocket
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      OK, this is what I have been taught. Remember we cannot judge the skin quality or the depth of color from photo’s. So this is mostly about conformation, pattern, and perceived color when judging from photo’s

      Looking at these baby photos I would rank these koi in order A, B, C, D for future potential. C & D are weaker from a conformation perspective(skinny tail joints) already have strongly finished black and red. Additionally D has too much sumi and it is poorly distributed. Koi C has a very nice three step kohaku pattern but sumi is already finished and very heavy on it’s right side and also heavy towards the rear. From the photo’s I would guess C& D are males.

      Koi B appears to have too much break between 1st and 2nd steps.

      Koi A has fantastic conformation for a baby koi but not so great a hi pattern. Red seems to be fairly consistent in color. Nice nose and tail stop. Sumi placement seems pretty good.

      OK now let’s jump ahead two years to the photo’s of these koi at three year olds. If these koi were in a show on the day of the photos I would rank them B, A, D, C.

      Koi C is last because of the yellowed and somewhat messy looking face and pattern

      Koi B is first because confirmation is good and all three colors are really pretty nice. Pattern is not that great but somehow the sumi camouflages the large mid body break and based on the competition on the day of the photo it manages to finish 1st.

      Koi A has incredible conformation. Look at the body shape and tail joint I would say at least a 9 of of 10 for it’s size. This is where the female body starts to dominate. White is fantastic. Sumi and hi remain unfinished. Could it be this koi has grown so much that it’s hi and sumi have not been able to catch up to this point. Only looking at the color depth and dimension very closely in person can you hope to determine if this is still a koi with a future or forever a want to be....

    2. #22
      Ray Jordan is offline The Rocket
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      Wow

      No disagreement with my rankings or crystal ball guesses?

    3. #23
      jjkon is offline Senior Member
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      Hi everyone,

      Sanke should have black on the shoulder. I want to make sure where the shoulder area begin. Is it immediately after the head/around the pectoral fins? I am still a newbie trying to learn. Thanks for your responses.

      John

    4. #24
      Koi-Toys is offline Senior Member
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      If the face of C were to "whiten up", how then would it fare against the rest? I haven't had much luck so far with a face that started off-color becoming white later on. Is this something that I should consider; if it isn't white now, don't expect it to be white later ?

      Were there any other demerits for koi C ?

      ~Raymond.

    5. #25
      Ray Jordan is offline The Rocket
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      Sanke C

      Quote Originally Posted by Koi-Toys
      If the face of C were to "whiten up", how then would it fare against the rest? I haven't had much luck so far with a face that started off-color becoming white later on. Is this something that I should consider; if it isn't white now, don't expect it to be white later ?

      Were there any other demerits for koi C ?

      ~Raymond.
      Hi Raymond,
      Sanke C has a male body shape with a very skinny tail joint. It is rather heavy in Hi and to my eye not all that interesting. But it is the yellow hue to the head that spoils this koi for me. I have seen small female koi with an off colored head whiten up nicely as they age and mature. Small female koi that have been fed color enhancers can have spoiled white ground but can improve if kept away from color enhanced foods and kept is great water quality. Young koi just emerging from a mud pond in the fall can have yellowed white ground that will clean up fairly quickly also.

      Be cautious when the rest of the koi's white is much whiter than the head/face. In those koi it seems much less likely that the head/face will clean up.

      Baby koi often have a pinky hue under the skin. This is not a concern as you are really viewing the muscle color through very thin translucent baby skin. (OMO)

    6. #26
      koidoc's Avatar
      koidoc is offline Here Comes The Judge!
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      three year olds

      OK here we go. From body shape and the mid section of koi I would guess Koi A&C are female. The other two male. This would also explain the yellow tint to the head on C. Females tend to maintain the yellower Head longer and clear up as they reach sexual maturity and produce eggs.
      C except for yellowing on head has the best finish for today.
      A has the best body but the Hi is thin and the black is not finished
      D had too much black but for today has the second best finish
      B has unbalanced color
      So by finish
      C,D,A,B
      Jusy my opinion
      C is holding color and might be the only bonified potential koi

    7. #27
      Ray Jordan is offline The Rocket
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      Hi KoiDoc,
      Thanks for your input. Help me with Sanke C. I can't seem to get past the yellow face this koi had on the day. Help me with placing it above Sanke B.
      Is it the lack of B's kato sumi that moves it below C? Would determining it to be male or female make any difference to you? What else am I missing?

    8. #28
      tategoiboy Guest - Time to Register
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      I don't see the overall quality in future for koi C. If koi C was female which I dont think it is a 3 years old for sanke to finish up. Screams male to me from the begining. The yellow in head got worse which is another sign and that photo of C looks to be altered. Hi is up and has no where to go except down.

      Koi A is my choice for future Potential and at 3 years old still a baby for Sanke. The hi is in middle of scale which will then thicken up if in the right enviroment. Over all future potential lies in Koi A which proves that its not pattern once again. When selecting Sanke we need to look for over all quality and future potential at a young age. Body frame on koi A is exceptional thick tail joint and will grow to be bigger as well. Head says so in realation to the gill plate.


      Koi A for me leave it in mud pond and now you got a quality fish. All others except B do not deserve space in a mud pond...


      JMHO By judging through pics. (something that should not be done but we do it anyhow)

    9. #29
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      koidoc is offline Here Comes The Judge!
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      Talking Koi C

      Hey Ray,
      C has better body than B so one point for C
      C has better color and thickness and homogenous, so two for C
      C has better balance side to side,front to back and lastlt rule of thirds.Not only look for 50/50 balance but also 33/33/33. Middle of B has little hi. Three points
      C has a more powerful Hiban across the shoulders and a better Maki giving it a more powerful appearance. Imposing. B looks weak and thin through middle. 4 pts
      Except for the Head I like the skin quality on C better. And it does have Kata Sumi. Don't dismiss it because it has a yellow head. Almost looks like Spirolina excess. You did not dismiss B for having no Kata Sumi or middle Hi. Have to look at all the fish. Be careful as you break the fish down into too many elements. You can miss the whole.
      As far as future A could turn out well with time although balane can't change. As B gets older the bare center will be even more pronounced. As D gets older too much black. And as C gets older maybe color down. But C is the only one that at least now has show criteria. I did not say I would buy it, but only choice if forced.
      It is a great myth that tategoi always have to be less colored when young. There are Tategoi that start out with high finish. It is not always true that males only color up early. Females can color up to at an early age. Want to keep both from coloring early, keep the sexes seperate.Don't sex a fish by early color. Can use it to guess if you must.Want to color both male and female up early for selling, keep them crowded and feed color food. When you stop them from growing they color. Keep less crowded and away from wanting sex and they color up slow.
      Best long term fish are ones seperated out early for grow out for more money by breeders. As early as they can they divide out sexes for maximum growth and with max growth slows color formation. Once start to color the gowth slows down.
      Koi do three things but not always best at the same time. They grow. They color. They breed. When they start to breed they color. If you can stop breed and thus color, you can put all their energy into growth.
      So if you are looking for Jumbos and GC's you buy lesser color females that have been maxed out for growth. Three year old should be at least 20 inches. Never smaller.Then max out growth for at least two more years. Leave with breeder or if you want to try yourself put in female only pond with at least 1000 gals. per fish. Feed no color food and then at 5 years old when it starts to slow down, start the finish process.
      Obviuosly we are talking about maximum size and potential. Not everyone wants to or has to want big fish.
      Is this what they mean by informative posts.
      JMHO

    10. #30
      Ray Jordan is offline The Rocket
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      Hi Art,
      It is still difficult for me to seperate "Judging" for today and "Selecting" koi for their potential. I am working hard to get better at both but, I am drawn to koi with brillant white and turned off by poor white. I know that white skin is just one element but it is an important element and the backdrop for everything else.

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