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    Thread: Is this pink beni ??

    1. #1
      eryno is offline Member
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      Is this pink beni ??

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      I like this skin so much, the colour and the brightness of the skin..

    2. #2
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by eryno View Post
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      I like this skin so much, the colour and the brightness of the skin..

      I don't think so, here is Pink Beni.
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      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    3. #3
      mplskoi is online now Supporting Member
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      Why do we call something that is orange "pink"?
      I realize that one of the definitions of "pink" is
      "the highest form or degree; prime:
      a runner in the pink of condition."
      But we don't refer to high quality sumi as "pink sumi".

    4. #4
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by mplskoi View Post
      Why do we call something that is orange "pink"?
      I realize that one of the definitions of "pink" is
      "the highest form or degree; prime:
      a runner in the pink of condition."
      But we don't refer to high quality sumi as "pink sumi".
      It is called Pink Beni because that is what it is. It has nothing to do with condition and it is not orange. Comparing it to Sumi doesn't make much sense either. Pink Beni, like any Beni, comes in high quality and low quality. Just because it is Pink Beni does not mean it is a high quality Beni. It is the same with any type of Beni too. Yellow Beni, persimmon Beni, 'Red' Beni all come in different grades of Beni from very poor to high quality.
      Pink Beni, generally speaking, comes from the purple spectrum of colors and, if you look at a color chart, purple goes to pink. The color chart I am attaching is a Purple - Pantone color chart.
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      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    5. #5
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Orange color chart for comparison.
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      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    6. #6
      mplskoi is online now Supporting Member
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      Russell,
      So it is your belief that the fish posted at the bottom of post 2 more closely resembles a color in the purple family in post four than the orange family in post five? Which color square in particular does it most closely resemble to you? Cause it sure looks like an orange 165 or 1665 to me.

    7. #7
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by mplskoi View Post
      Russell,
      So it is your belief that the fish posted at the bottom of post 2 more closely resembles a color in the purple family in post four than the orange family in post five? Which color square in particular does it most closely resemble to you? Cause it sure looks like an orange 165 or 1665 to me.
      Yes, not only is it my belief, it is fact and it is what the breeders in Japan teach. There isn't a Kohaku that exists that has Beni derived from an orange base. Kujaku is another story, you can find orange there, perhaps you should spend some time looking at the Orange in Kujaku Beni.
      Last edited by Russell Peters; 11-09-2015 at 04:01 PM.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    8. #8
      Rob Forbis is offline Senior Member
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      Beautiful photo.

      I maybe think this illustrates Russís pink conjunction between red and blue.

      The shades of orange diagram illustrates the underappreciated insight that brown is dark orange.
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    9. #9
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      I think we often confuse just the color tone with the quality that separates Pink Beni from the others.
      This is an old thread but it's got some gems regarding content and it also helps define it from a Japanese point of view.

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...2147-Pink-Beni

      A number of breeders produce beni within the tones considered Pink but what makes those with Pink Beni unique is the quality:

      Quote Originally Posted by Super Kindai View Post
      ... Well, we call the beni of Kame no kou = pink beni as if a stained glass beni that means the beni plate has a feeling of transparency, bright without muddy tone, clear & crystal, etc. http://images.google.co.jp/images?so...t=title&resnum PS) truly good ones few.....
      Have you ever seen like that kind of beni before? ......
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    10. #10
      mplskoi is online now Supporting Member
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      or, a plant family that become synonymous with pink:




      and a plant that has become synonymous with orange:



    11. #11
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      The pic that Russ shared is a koi that is not fully mature and is growing. She has Hoshi, meaning star, and shows the true depth of color in the "star".
      Can you see the blue-ish tone at the center of the scale? That is the tone the Beni will achieve when the koi is mature.

      HTH
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    12. #12
      mplskoi is online now Supporting Member
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      The problem with defining a color with what it is derived from is that many colors are defined as much by what they are as by what they AREN'T. And it seems to me that to be considered (literally) pink then it can contain no yellow. None whatsoever.

      As a haircolorist I have spend countless hours in continued education understanding color theory. One of the things that we focus on is that fine line between cool colors and warm colors. And when we are trying to create cool colors we have to keep all yellow and orange out. Yellow alone, with not a speck of red can be cool, or with any amount of green can be cool. (Think mustard). But that range between yellow and red on the color wheel is warm tone. And as you move around to pure red and make even an incremental step towards blue you are in the cool. But take those cool tones and throw any amount of visible yellow gold in the mix and you are back to warm.
      In my world the difference between pink and orange are miles apart and no matter how little yellow is in the mix, if you have yellow you can't call it pink anymore.
      I realize that what the canvas is that we see the color on makes a world of difference. And that how pigment is structured into that canvas (scales or hair or plant matter) is always different, but if in the end you can see yellow with your red then it is orange. If I promise a customer cool tone hair and 90% of it is cool but there is yellow orange mixed in then I can not claim it is cool. Like there is a pecking order to how we see color. Cool colors with a little warmth are seen as warm. Red based colors, even red based colors with lots of blue in them, if you can see yellow then they are not cool, nor are they pink.
      I guess if the Japanese want to use a term in a trademark sort of way then that is their prerogative, and if the koi community wants to follow suit they sure can. But there is no way that you can convince me that what is now considered "pink beni" is actually in any way pink.
      And when a breeder finds a way to keep all of the yellow out of their beni then they should get the credit and get to call it pink. But until then, I see orange.

      Another way to think about: think about the colors we have to look at with our water drop kits. Imagine if you ammonia test kit said that your fish were fine if the color came out pink, but were in imminent danger if the drop kit came out orange. If your drop kit came out looking like the fish posted above would you leave and go out for dinner? Or would you start adding an ammo-lock product and doing a major water change?

    13. #13
      mplskoi is online now Supporting Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Rob Forbis View Post
      Beautiful photo.

      I maybe think this illustrates Russís pink conjunction between red and blue.

      The shades of orange diagram illustrates the underappreciated insight that brown is dark orange.
      Rob, brown and black are not on color wheels because it takes all three primary pigments to create them. To make brown you need yellow red and blue. Black requires all of those pigments as well but in such a high level as to drown out any light reflection.And color wheels can not show this.
      Not that dark orange isn't pretty close to brown, but without any blue pigment you can't make brown. Try it all you want but it can't be done.

      Rob, I am editing this to concede that in some versions of color theory brown is considered dark orange. Though looking into the fine print of any color theory it is stated that the only way to truly darken orange is adding black, adding brown, or adding it's complimentary color. Which any of those options means blue is added in one form or the other. And considering that orange by definition is a mixture of yellow and red, I stand by my view that you can not make brown without blue pigment, and once you have added blue you can no longer call it orange. So dealing purely in primary colors brown is orange plus blue.
      Last edited by mplskoi; 11-10-2015 at 12:59 AM.

    14. #14
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      I'm sympathetic to your background making it impossible to define something that is contrary to that background.
      But I don't have an issue with the people that created and refined something to refer to it contrary to that background.

      For most people, a simple classification of good or bad Beni is enough.
      For a number of others, we want more. We want the knowledge that fed the drive that created something and what continues to refine it. That is why I was hoping Junichi's (Super Kindai) quote would be of assistance. It's more than simply a color wheel. It's the unique depth, elasticity and impression Pink Beni generates.
      I just read a member's post the other day speaking of the different tones of Beni they were seeing in their pond. For some of us, it's a huge part of the enjoyment of the hobby. Understanding what is more highly prized and why and how it pertains to what we have.

      I have two Sanke I purchased while in Japan last April. One is Pink and the other is Persimmon Beni. They are both beautiful koi and considered high quality. Both have been offered an additional year in the mud. I appreciate them individually for what they are. They are more than just two Sanke to me. Side by side, there is no doubt there is a difference in the Beni. Again, it's part of what feeds my love of this hobby. Seeking out, seeing and appreciating the nuances in something like Beni tones and quality.

      But if that isn't what is important to you then it's probably and that is fine.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    15. #15
      abuchi123's Avatar
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      I can spot pink beni when I get lucky. The tell is not in the color tone. It has to do with the skin type and the transparent quality of the beni. When the beni is still thin, look at the shiroji for clues.

    16. #16
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      Is this pink beni?

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    17. #17
      mplskoi is online now Supporting Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by abuchi123 View Post
      The tell is not in the color tone. It has to do with the skin type and the transparent quality of the beni. .
      and quoting Marilyn
      "It's more than simply a color wheel. It's the unique depth, elasticity and impression Pink Beni generates. "

      I am comfortable with this use of the word "pink" in this way. As one of my earlier posts showed, one of the technically correct ways to use the word pink is to mean "the highest form or degree".
      But I don't think we should confuse ourselves that pink beni resembles what is generally considered pink tones or color.

    18. #18
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      It is, my words here, blue based Beni tones though. This may not be as apparent as the koi grows and the Beni thins and stretches but it will tighten back up and be what it is.

      We've seen so many examples of Beni on the forum and almost all breeders produce some version of a Beni that leans towards the blue tones as opposed to orange or yellow.
      Dainichi have some koi that show a deep blue-red Beni tone and they are coveted by many for this trait. INC/Matsunosuke are prized for their Pink for a similar reason. It's beyond the tone, blue based, it yields the depth of color like layers of lacquer paint on classic cars. A stained glass window look that is truly unique. It is nearly impossible to properly show in this type of context, via pictures on the internet, but in person it is much easier to see.

      A pic of my two lasses when I purchased them last April. One is decidedly Pink and the other is Persimmon.
      The Pink is the one that has unique depth and looks like a stained glass window. It is a little tricky via a picture as the Persimmon is of very high quality but look at the ridge. Which has the added dimensionality? You can see the difference in the Beni on the heads of these, too. One color sits on the koi, in a good way and the other feels like you could reach into it.
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      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    19. #19
      abuchi123's Avatar
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      It is much easier to tell when they are side by side.

    20. #20
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      Is this pink beni?

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      It is much more obvious later on.

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      Last edited by abuchi123; 11-09-2015 at 08:26 PM.

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