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    Thread: MOMOTARO KOHAKU for view and judge please

    1. #41
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      I like how the Momotaro fish is developing especially the beni and skin.

      VENT shots are too fuzzy. I'd guess male also but the confidence level is low.
      Last edited by abuchi123; 08-14-2015 at 07:06 PM.

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    2. #42
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      Quote Originally Posted by rainblood View Post
      I don't ever recall seeing a Momo listed for less than $300...
      I'd put this one at $500
      nah..i've got 3 of them (w/ certificate) each less than $300
      but for jumbo tosai, i think the cheapest will be Yen 50.000

      for this fish i'm concerning the shoulder area, they seem not broad enough, but this is momotaro anything can happen
      also the beni, but sometimes dealer give color pellets for selling purpose

    3. #43
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      Quote Originally Posted by frostbitez View Post
      nah..i've got 3 of them (w/ certificate) each less than $300
      but for jumbo tosai, i think the cheapest will be Yen 50.000

      for this fish i'm concerning the shoulder area, they seem not broad enough, but this is momotaro anything can happen
      also the beni, but sometimes dealer give color pellets for selling purpose
      For the grades of fish that equivalents can easily be found ($200 to $5000), the prices in the US are definitely higher than the rest of the world. Hobbyists in Asia are getting some of the best deals. Cheaper shipping plus lower markup, maybe? Even for the pricy breeders' direct auction fish, a dealer in HK is taking straight 20% comission plus nominal shipping charge. That is a lot of risks they took when they put up their own money to bid on the fish before there are committed buyers. I was surprised to see Euro hobbyists are getting fish cheaper as well. The difference is that they do seem to buy more higher end koi and lots of them. Higher volume + competition = better price? It does show that the European hobbyists are, on average, buying better koi. Back in the US, some of the fish that priced for thousands of dollars are just atrocious for the asking price. You can easily find examples from multiple dealers. I blame the tendency of Americans lagging behind, in many things, on the drinking of blackwater labeled as coffee and the English unit system.
      Last edited by abuchi123; 08-15-2015 at 01:43 PM.

    4. #44
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      Quote Originally Posted by abuchi123 View Post
      For the grades of fish that equivalents can easily be found ($200 to $5000), the prices in the US are definitely higher than the rest of the world. Hobbyists in Asia are getting some of the best deals. Cheaper shipping plus lower markup, maybe? Even for the pricy breeders' direct auction fish, a dealer in HK is taking straight 20% comission plus nominal shipping charge. That is a lot of risks they took when they put up their own money to bid on the fish before there are committed buyers. I was surprised to see Euro hobbyists are getting fish cheaper as well. The difference is that they do seem to buy more higher end koi and lots of them. Higher volume + competition = better price? It does show that the European hobbyists are, on average, buying better koi. Back in the US, some of the fish that priced for thousands of dollars are just atrocious for the asking price. You can easily find examples from multiple dealers. I blame the tendency of Americans lagging behind, in many things, on the drinking of blackwater labeled as coffee and the English unit system.
      In Economics it's known as the Gross National Product as supply/demand and what your market will bear. You're absolutely correct, the Europeans and some Asian countries are buying bigger amounts of higher quality fish, especially with regard to SFF, Omosako, Momotaro and such in the Hiroshima area, and from Dainichi, Marudo, Nogami and a few others in the Niigata region. Sakai Fish Farm is usually always out of tosai stock on pre-orders for general grade and high pond grade stock before the end of December. You also have to, it seems, be willing to buy some higher quality larger stocks before you are even considered for purchasing tosai as the demand at SFF and Momotaro is so huge!

      If you ever go to Japan and visit the breeders, you'll see a huge contingent of European and Asian dealers in comparison to US dealers. There are actually very few US dealers that even consider looking, let alone purchasing the higher quality fish. In fact, many of the US dealers rely on other dealers to be brokers for them and they purchase groups of fish from them rather than spending the additional monies needed to go to Japan. I could go on and on on this subject but suffice to say, and I've said it multiple times on this forum, learn to understand quality by looking personally at better/higher quality fish A LOT and then "buy the fish not the breeder" in most cases. Oh, and forget the certificate issue.
      Mike

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    5. #45
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      Quote Originally Posted by abuchi123 View Post
      For the grades of fish that equivalents can easily be found ($200 to $5000), the prices in the US are definitely higher than the rest of the world. Hobbyists in Asia are getting some of the best deals. Cheaper shipping plus lower markup, maybe? Even for the pricy breeders' direct auction fish, a dealer in HK is taking straight 20% comission plus nominal shipping charge. That is a lot of risks they took when they put up their own money to bid on the fish before there are committed buyers. I was surprised to see Euro hobbyists are getting fish cheaper as well. The difference is that they do seem to buy more higher end koi and lots of them. Higher volume + competition = better price? It does show that the European hobbyists are, on average, buying better koi. Back in the US, some of the fish that priced for thousands of dollars are just atrocious for the asking price. You can easily find examples from multiple dealers. I blame the tendency of Americans lagging behind, in many things, on the drinking of blackwater labeled as coffee and the English unit system.
      sorry if you got me wrong...its my habit to tell price in yen if it was the initial price from breeder (without shipping cost and dealer fees), and the rest will be usd in this forum
      but i really understand why dealer give or take margin higher than any other merchandise...because the risk is very high
      but if you bought fish straight when they are still in japan dealer only mark those price by 10-20% only considering the risk of fish not sold is already gone

      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      In Economics it's known as the Gross National Product as supply/demand and what your market will bear. You're absolutely correct, the Europeans and some Asian countries are buying bigger amounts of higher quality fish, especially with regard to SFF, Omosako, Momotaro and such in the Hiroshima area, and from Dainichi, Marudo, Nogami and a few others in the Niigata region. Sakai Fish Farm is usually always out of tosai stock on pre-orders for general grade and high pond grade stock before the end of December. You also have to, it seems, be willing to buy some higher quality larger stocks before you are even considered for purchasing tosai as the demand at SFF and Momotaro is so huge!

      If you ever go to Japan and visit the breeders, you'll see a huge contingent of European and Asian dealers in comparison to US dealers. There are actually very few US dealers that even consider looking, let alone purchasing the higher quality fish. In fact, many of the US dealers rely on other dealers to be brokers for them and they purchase groups of fish from them rather than spending the additional monies needed to go to Japan. I could go on and on on this subject but suffice to say, and I've said it multiple times on this forum, learn to understand quality by looking personally at better/higher quality fish A LOT and then "buy the fish not the breeder" in most cases. Oh, and forget the certificate issue.
      that is so true until 2014...its a lot easier to get tosai from SFF, but since last year every dealer (even major ones) only get quota of less than hundred, and as i recall the fishes quality are decrease than years before
      the demand from china is the culprit they said

      han

    6. #46
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      Quote Originally Posted by frostbitez View Post
      sorry if you got me wrong...its my habit to tell price in yen if it was the initial price from breeder (without shipping cost and dealer fees), and the rest will be usd in this forum
      but i really understand why dealer give or take margin higher than any other merchandise...because the risk is very high
      but if you bought fish straight when they are still in japan dealer only mark those price by 10-20% only considering the risk of fish not sold is already gone



      that is so true until 2014...its a lot easier to get tosai from SFF, but since last year every dealer (even major ones) only get quota of less than hundred, and as i recall the fishes quality are decrease than years before
      the demand from china is the culprit they said

      han
      Your suspicion was the same as mine. I noticed a substential drop in 2014 tosai quality and availability. I also thought the Chinese dealers were buying them all.

      Koi price can vary greatly but the breeders pretty much had most control in the past few years. It has not been difficult to see a pattern in the price for certain level of quality that the breeders are demanding. With internet, it isn't impossible to figure out the "invoice price" just like buying a car. For examples, three dealers visited the same breeder. They all try to keep secret as much information as possible for competitive reasons. However, they offered similar fish and leaked various pieces of information that can be used to solve the puzzle. Two dealers might even offer the same exact fish. In a few cases, some dealers outed themselves for trying to milk customers too hard. IMO, business maneuver like that is short term wise guy but long term foolish.

    7. #47
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      I guess SFF found a niche market for their culls too! So, why throw money into the river when you can put it into your pocket!?! This can also backfire on a breeder, as they are putting their reputation on the line. But, yes, the dealers from the Far East, not just China, but Singapore, Vietnam, Thailand and others are also bringing large wads of money to Japan. Breeders sell to whoever has the most cash. I mean, as basically a "farmer", wouldn't you sell your livestock, like cattle/sheep, to the highest bidder at market? But, to put your integrity/reputation on the line, for the long haul, could certainly have adverse effects on your business model later.
      Mike

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    8. #48
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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      I guess SFF found a niche market for their culls too! So, why throw money into the river when you can put it into your pocket!?! This can also backfire on a breeder, as they are putting their reputation on the line. But, yes, the dealers from the Far East, not just China, but Singapore, Vietnam, Thailand and others are also bringing large wads of money to Japan. Breeders sell to whoever has the most cash. I mean, as basically a "farmer", wouldn't you sell your livestock, like cattle/sheep, to the highest bidder at market? But, to put your integrity/reputation on the line, for the long haul, could certainly have adverse effects on your business model later.
      I agree. When the demand is high, the breeders offer lesser quality general grade fish for dealers to pick from. The price went up even though the quality actually went the other way.

      Now back to the original topic. The OP did very well judging the quality vs price ratio. The skin and body exceeded my original expectation. That is why I enjoy threads like this. The fish always has the final say.
      Last edited by abuchi123; 08-16-2015 at 10:56 PM.

    9. #49
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      I spent over my budget this year for tosai. Honestly my dealer carries quality certificate at seasonable price and some of the first picks are awesome. I'm just thrilled to see this kohaku in the tank at the moment and so far I'm not regret with the purchased.
      M.Nguyen


    10. #50
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      How much did you spend on non tosai

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    11. #51
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      Quote Originally Posted by New Member View Post
      How much did you spend on non tosai
      $0

      I like to grow and watch my little koi grow from small to mature. I spent somewhat between $500 to $2000 yearly.
      M.Nguyen


    12. #52
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      Quote Originally Posted by OCkoiFan View Post
      $0

      I like to grow and watch my little koi grow from small to mature. I spent somewhat between $500 to $2000 yearly.
      So, tell me, how many years have you been buying tosai and spending that much money on them? How many do you still have and how many have been re-homed?
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    13. #53
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      I rehomed about 75% of them, but within this year I go for higher quality and planning no more or only one annual from now
      M.Nguyen


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      Now there are 8 in my main pond (my brother took all his fish that I babysit for 4 months).
      This year I got 8 cheap ogata and five okay tosai to play with in the indoor tank. Probably will add 2-3 to the main pond end of season. The rest will be rehome at fair prices or to good friends. Been in the hobby for six years, many upgade on equipments, fish, etc, and I think Im at where my limitation now.
      M.Nguyen


    15. #55
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      Quote Originally Posted by OCkoiFan View Post
      Now there are 8 in my main pond (my brother took all his fish that I babysit for 4 months).
      This year I got 8 cheap ogata and five okay tosai to play with in the indoor tank. Probably will add 2-3 to the main pond end of season. The rest will be rehome at fair prices or to good friends. Been in the hobby for six years, many upgade on equipments, fish, etc, and I think Im at where my limitation now.
      My opinion, FWIW - With regard to Gosanke only - Don't waste your time/money on Ogata fish. They really won't teach you anything except not to buy anymore. And, buying "cheap" tosai won't really open an educational window into what the word "quality" refers to.

      Let's take your 2015 purchases just as an example. A total of 13 fish, let's say at an average price of $250. That's a total of around $3000+ dollars. And the percentage of re-homes at roughly 75%, according to you, you lost a total of around $2400-$2500 just on the intial purchase price. You "may" recoup a bit of that in secondary sales, but I doubt very much. Still think your "learning" curve improved enough to cover the lost expense. With "cheap fish" and Ogata quality, I would say I seriously doubt it.

      Now, had you spent, say $750-$1000 on three or four Nisai, during the Fall Harvest, you'd stand a far better chance of getting fish of higher quality, that wouldn't end up being re-homed after only one season. So, you actually saved money and are able to purchase much better quality fish to learn from and develop your eye. Of course, the best way to do this is simply to go to the dealers and look at what "high quality" looks like first, and then begin to discover the subtle nuances within "high quality" stocks that separate the very high level from the high level. This is where you'll begin to find value in your purchases. If you don't succeed at first, keep trying. This hobby is a money pit during the learning curve and even beyond. But, if you do it right, the cost of the lessons learned can actually be offset by the learning itself.

      The last for YOU to consider, is the size of your QT and the size of your main pond. Doing as suggested above, you'd lower your stocking density greatly in the qt, allowing better water quality without as much work. Just think, you'd also most likely reduce your main pond stocking density as well. Of course, you could also save 1/2 the money you're spending by only buying one or two Nisai at, say, $1000, further reducing your initial cash outlay, and reducing stocking density, therefore allowing the fish to better thrive in your smaller main pond environment. Sounds like a WIN-WIN to me!
      Mike

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    16. #56
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      I do understand but I don't think am at that level of high quality yet. Basicly to own show koi there are more expenses to it.
      This year I bought quiet more than usually but the Ogata only cost me $350. There other five cost me about $900. I just can't spend $700 or more on a piece without guarantee its safety,I had fish jumped out, died of flukes. I do think am most comfort with certicate tosai about $300-$500 so maybe one or two is all I need from now since my pond is already at it stocking limit. Anyway thank you for your reccomendation Mike.
      M.Nguyen


    17. #57
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      I'm in a similar situation. I buy mostly Tosai. I would gladly buy Nisai or older ,if I could find good ones for the right price.
      Here in So Cal, it's difficult to find great Nisai or older fish , because most Dealers don't take a chance on that large of an investment. Dealers around Here sell mostly $50 and under fish because that's what most customers want.
      My entire collection (except for only 2 fish) are all raised from Tosai. I don't want to think about how many fish Ive gone through each year , but if I kept 1 in 10, it was a good year.

    18. #58
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      Maybe both of you should pm Russ and have him send you some pics of decent fish in a little higher price range. I think you'd get a lot better than what most dealers want to spend to bring in fish for a "limited level" clientele. I'm referring to their "average" customers and I totally agree. I'm sure you understand their logic/economics from a business standpoint.

      Nguyen, you need to have "show" fish but the quality of that level, without "show patterns" can teach you a whole lot more, and faster, than what you're currently doing.

      CF - so, going back to my "economics" post, think of what that 1 in 10 fish actually cost after the initial 10 fish purchase. Take the total, cut it in half and buy two fish for that amount. You'd have a much better chance of getting much better "keepers" by doing so.

      It's funny though, to look back on all my years in this hobby, and here the same stories based on the same things I too thought at that stage. A lot of water (changes) has gone under the bridge since then and though my fish are all mostly 8yrs old and more, I can still tell you the breeder of every one of them, when/how I got them and stories about many during my trips to Japan, mostly with Russ. It's been a journey that has been quite rewarding and I wouldn't trade the experiences/knowledge I gained from them for anything else in my life, other than my wife and kids/grandkids. If you like koi, there's just something magical about it all that, once it sinks it's claws into you, it's like a bacterial infection that never goes away.LOL

      buying tosai is the worst bet you can make. Kinda like going to Vegas to find out which type of gambling apparatus/game has the best odds in your favor. Tosai are like slot machines, the worst odds for us and the best odds for the house!
      Mike

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    19. #59
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      Hi Jeff
      I'm sure you did get a few at the grow out contest. I knew a guy bought 22 pieces so that cost him $2200 and I only got 2... so I'm noy really a koi chichi yet. Btw Chai anf Nori also got their bowl full too.
      M.Nguyen


    20. #60
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      Thanks again Mike, but until I have a pond at least ten times the size of the current, my pond is just too wasted on high quality Koi. And that is probably will never happen because this little pond already a small boat that sucking cash.
      M.Nguyen


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