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    Thread: lost this ochiba at auction

    1. #41
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Victoria View Post
      I will speak for myself here, but I think the OP might be trying to sort out a similar question: I'm going to paste photos of a few <$100 fish that look nice to me. I realize they won't win any shows and aren't worth $500, and that many / most here would have no interest in koi of this (low) quality. But given that they look nice to me now, will they still look this "good" in a few years or are they destined to lose all their color, turn black, or otherwise go downhill in a way that even I would see?



      Thanks.

      -Tory
      No, they won't look this good in a few years. Some are destined to lose their color, some will get blacker and all will go downhill. Will you be able to see it? No, not with what you have learned so far. These things you need to know come with time, studying a lot of Koi and putting them up to the highest standard so you'll know what their flaws are.

      The conformation on all of them is not good but to varying degrees. The Hi Utsuri is going to be a black speckled mess, the Hariwake is going to be covered with orange spots, I can already see that it is uneven, the long fin is going to get dark and messy and the Tancho will lose it's spot.
      Last edited by Russell Peters; 02-17-2015 at 06:58 PM.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

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    2. #42
      LadysSolo is offline Senior Member
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      Rufretic, when I first came to Koiphen, I wanted to learn what was good and what was bad in a koi. So I went through and read ALL the posts in "judge this koi," and tried to learn what was good and what was bad. Then I decided when I started buying koi what I could live with and what I couldn't, and then bought fish based on if I would enjoy them or not. You and I are in roughly the same price point (although I am spending more than I ever have before and bought one of Russ's tosai from the group he is offering that he used as an example,) but I do not think I will be unhappy with it. So I guess I am saying you need to decide what you can live with, and if you think you will enjoy the koi, go for it! If nothing else, you will learn from it.

    3. #43
      Traitimkh8 is offline Senior Member
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      It would be nice if you have thousands of dollars to spend on each koi, but for those who can only spend about $150-200 each. There are some nice one you can find. You just got to be patient for the right deal through auction sites or from other koiphen members. Here are a few fish I bought last year under $200. They might not qualify for any koi show but it's not too bad.Name:  image.jpg
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    4. #44
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      Quote Originally Posted by LadysSolo View Post
      Rufretic, when I first came to Koiphen, I wanted to learn what was good and what was bad in a koi. So I went through and read ALL the posts in "judge this koi," and tried to learn what was good and what was bad. Then I decided when I started buying koi what I could live with and what I couldn't, and then bought fish based on if I would enjoy them or not. You and I are in roughly the same price point (although I am spending more than I ever have before and bought one of Russ's tosai from the group he is offering that he used as an example,) but I do not think I will be unhappy with it. So I guess I am saying you need to decide what you can live with, and if you think you will enjoy the koi, go for it! If nothing else, you will learn from it.
      Precisely. It breaks down quite simply to quality costs more.


      Conformation is the highest determining factor followed by skin quality and then pattern.

      Think of it this way.
      You have a couch with gorgeous fabric and style but it's shot to heck, lumpy and uneven.
      That is the frame. No matter how nice the covering, the frame is still bad and you will notice it.

      Skin is like the fabric. You'll pay a lot more for fabrics with luster, gloss and sheen like a handpainted silk than you will a cotton duck or canvas. And the result on the frame will appear change the overall appearance of the couch.

      Pattern is similar. Who wants a couch that has a speckly mess of a pattern or something that is unappealing because it isn't balanced?
      Mind you, balance is not a static interpretation but an artistic one. I like some asymmetry in a pattern but if it's too much the koi will never be as visually appealing swimming next to others more balanced.

      Ultimately, where you decide to skimp is what determines the koi you will have. Only the buyer is able to decide which factors are most important to him or her individually.
      It doesn't matter much if everyone here says X is a good koi, if it's not what you like and prefer than it won't be that special to you.
      And determining what appeals to you most is easiest after you've seen lots and lots of koi.

      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    5. #45
      Jim Smith is offline Senior Member
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      If your very lucky you might find a good koi among the cheaper koi. but be prepared to spend a lot of time looking at lots of fish and walking away most days. Cheap good koi bought on the internet can't be done IMO. I've spent years looking for that diamond in the rough and most of the time it's a lost cause. Doesn't mean i wont be first in line to see the new arrivals.

    6. #46
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      In my experience, (not a ton of experience mind you) at a lower price point you have to choose which three aspects of quality to shoot for.
      Skin quality; luster, sheen, evenness.
      Conformation; good bone structure, symmetry, good even torpedo shape front to back, good sized head, good tail thickness.
      Pattern; Strong, even color, good balance front to back, side to side and fit to fish, as a young small fish and a larger older fish.

      Lesser price point fish will compromise on at least two, if not all three points. Medium priced point fish usually have at least two out of three, show quality priced fish usually will have all three. On average. ymmv.

      So you should decide which points are most important to you, in other words which points can you live without, which you cannot.

      I try to choose good conformation first, and good skin quality next. Pattern is the least of my concerns, that is my choice to compromise on.

      A funny body shape will always bother me, no matter how good the other two are, that's my focus. If it has good skin quality, that's even better. I can live with a so-so pattern if the other two are decent.

      For someone else, it could be pattern is most important, they don't mind a football body if the pattern pleases them.

      This isn't to say that all my fish have turned out well, I didn't always have a good eye, and I'm always learning, but I think my later picks seem to be getting better than my earlier picks.

      Now my disclaimer; I have spent more than $100 on all my fish, but most have been less than $500, when you jump up into a little bit higher price point it does get you better fish to pick from.

      So you see you have to decide what you can and cannot live with at a lower price point.
      If a koi has all three points it's not going to be in the $100-200 price range. Heck it may not even be in the $$$ at all, it could go into the $$$$ range, depending on how good each area is.

      I'm just saying it will be easier for you to evaluate lower priced koi if you think about which quality areas you want and which you can compromise on.
      Regards,BarbJ
      Come on by and visit both club's websites!


      Click for Cupertino, California Forecast

    7. #47
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      There are no perfect fish, and if you can get them they are culls from somebody. True Tategoi don't leave the breeders facility while they are Tategoi. All koi go down hill, as has been said many times they are like cut flowers, and you know what happens to cut flowers within a short period of time. Now, some will not bloom for years, so they will get better with age to a point, and then they will decline. Some are already in full bloom, and will start going down hill immediately.

      When we start, we (I speak for me and a bunch of others that I know) start with 3 for $19 and are very happy with them, but we see some of the great fish in the shows and all of a sudden, our eye gets a little better and we realize that the culls that we have been enjoying are just that. We move up a little, and if you have a wife like mine the little is more than a little. I have friends that have never moved up, and they are perfectly happy with the fish they have. We have spent what I would consider decent money, and a couple of years later rehomed the fish because they were at their prime when we bought them. We have kept fish that, in my estimation have gotten better, and we have had spawn that turned out great, in our minds.

      If you like it buy it. If it changes to where you don't like it, rehome it. You will find that you set a budget for what you think you want to spend, and a couple of years go by, and that special fish is almost within budget and you buy it.

      It is your pond, your fish, your hobby. Enjoy.
      Zone 7 A/B
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      Richard

    8. #48
      Rufretic is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      OK, so what level is "some" quality? For $200.00 you might be able to get a Koi with one area of quality but what level is that quality? Even "bad" quality is a level of quality. The thing I misunderstood is when you said you wanted the quality of Beni I showed on the expensive Goshiki I posted. You could never get that level of Beni quality for $200.00 because that level of Beni quality also depends on a level of skin quality and in the big picture to a breeder, a Koi with good quality Beni and skin, and bad conformation, is still worth more.
      This clears a lot up. I did not realize that good quality Beni and skin would make the value go up more than conformation. This is probably why I am having such a hard time finding a goshiki I like anywhere near my price range. I'm looking for that quality color and skin that looks good to me so I guess I should give up on that one. Other types I don't notice the color and skin quality as much so I'm still happy with less quality in that department if the pattern looks good in my eyes.

      Quote Originally Posted by rainblood View Post
      Negative. Quality is quality and has no bearing on price, sex, size, etc.
      Now there are different standards or expectations at certain price points, but that doesn't change the quality of the fish.
      Just because that Ochiba is a good deal at $133, doesn't make it a high quality fish, savvy?
      I can understand that, I should have been more clear and just said "is this ochiba worth $133." I personally think it is because it looks a lot better than others I've compared it to that cost more but had an even lower quality. I do believe there are different levels of quality though, bad, average, good, excellent. I just can't judge it yet.

      Quote Originally Posted by Traitimkh8 View Post
      It would be nice if you have thousands of dollars to spend on each koi, but for those who can only spend about $150-200 each. There are some nice one you can find. You just got to be patient for the right deal through auction sites or from other koiphen members. Here are a few fish I bought last year under $200. They might not qualify for any koi show but it's not too bad.Name:  image.jpg
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      I have to be honest, all those are high quality koi in my eyes. They are beautiful and I would be happy to have any one of them in my pond. I'm sure others could critique them and say why they would not win shows but I do not care to have any better quality than those koi you shared. You give me some hope, thank you.

      Quote Originally Posted by BarbJ View Post
      In my experience, (not a ton of experience mind you) at a lower price point you have to choose which three aspects of quality to shoot for.
      Skin quality; luster, sheen, evenness.
      Conformation; good bone structure, symmetry, good even torpedo shape front to back, good sized head, good tail thickness.
      Pattern; Strong, even color, good balance front to back, side to side and fit to fish, as a young small fish and a larger older fish.

      Lesser price point fish will compromise on at least two, if not all three points. Medium priced point fish usually have at least two out of three, show quality priced fish usually will have all three. On average. ymmv.

      So you should decide which points are most important to you, in other words which points can you live without, which you cannot.

      I try to choose good conformation first, and good skin quality next. Pattern is the least of my concerns, that is my choice to compromise on.

      A funny body shape will always bother me, no matter how good the other two are, that's my focus. If it has good skin quality, that's even better. I can live with a so-so pattern if the other two are decent.

      For someone else, it could be pattern is most important, they don't mind a football body if the pattern pleases them.

      This isn't to say that all my fish have turned out well, I didn't always have a good eye, and I'm always learning, but I think my later picks seem to be getting better than my earlier picks.

      Now my disclaimer; I have spent more than $100 on all my fish, but most have been less than $500, when you jump up into a little bit higher price point it does get you better fish to pick from.

      So you see you have to decide what you can and cannot live with at a lower price point.
      If a koi has all three points it's not going to be in the $100-200 price range. Heck it may not even be in the $$$ at all, it could go into the $$$$ range, depending on how good each area is.

      I'm just saying it will be easier for you to evaluate lower priced koi if you think about which quality areas you want and which you can compromise on.
      Thank you for this explanation. This is exactly what I was asking about. I should be able to find koi in my price range that show quality in at least one area. If I can find koi that are visually pleasing to me in color & skin, my highest expectation of quality then I can settle on a lower quality for conformation and especially pattern. As long as the koi is not noticeably out of shape then I could be happy with that.

    9. #49
      LadysSolo is offline Senior Member
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      And you will pay more for a fish that could grow large (nearing 36"). That is my first area of compromise, I do not want to have a fish get that big. And my second area is large frame, I prefer a more "streamlined" appearance versus some people who prefer "imposing," (these are conformation) so that gets my purchase price a bit lower. I have to like the skin quality and pattern (being aware the pattern may change for the worse, but by then I will be attached to the fish so "oh well"). You have to decide for you where you want to compromise.

    10. #50
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      No, they won't look this good in a few years. Some are destined to lose their color, some will get blacker and all will go downhill. Will you be able to see it? No, not with what you have learned so far. These things you need to know come with time, studying a lot of Koi and putting them up to the highest standard so you'll know what their flaws are.
      snip
      Thank you. That is the main thing I'm trying to figure out right now: Which ones will go downhill so much that even I will be able to tell and which ones might not. I'm getting the impression that solid colored ones (especially non-yellow) are the best bet for me, and the ones with beni are the most likely to be disastrous for someone with my lack of expertise (unless I buck up and pay one of you pros to pick one in a higher price range for me). Perhaps I should try to cultivate an affinity for kohaku-esque goldfish.

      -Tory

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    11. #51
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      Russ,

      Not to jack the thread, but how do you summize the toncho loosing it's spot and the Hariwake getting orange spot's? The other's I get.

    12. #52
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      Shoot, on taking another look at the hariwake, I do see the orange coming through on the left shoulder and right side a little further back than mid of dorsal. but the toncho I don't see at all.

    13. #53
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      There are no perfect fish, and if you can get them they are culls from somebody. True Tategoi don't leave the breeders facility while they are Tategoi. All koi go down hill, as has been said many times they are like cut flowers, and you know what happens to cut flowers within a short period of time. Now, some will not bloom for years, so they will get better with age to a point, and then they will decline. Some are already in full bloom, and will start going down hill immediately.

      When we start, we (I speak for me and a bunch of others that I know) start with 3 for $19 and are very happy with them, but we see some of the great fish in the shows and all of a sudden, our eye gets a little better and we realize that the culls that we have been enjoying are just that. We move up a little, and if you have a wife like mine the little is more than a little. I have friends that have never moved up, and they are perfectly happy with the fish they have. We have spent what I would consider decent money, and a couple of years later rehomed the fish because they were at their prime when we bought them. We have kept fish that, in my estimation have gotten better, and we have had spawn that turned out great, in our minds.

      If you like it buy it. If it changes to where you don't like it, rehome it. You will find that you set a budget for what you think you want to spend, and a couple of years go by, and that special fish is almost within budget and you buy it.

      It is your pond, your fish, your hobby. Enjoy.
      This just isn't true. Buying Tategoi is possible and everything a breeder has is for sale, other than potential oyagoi, but it really depends on the relationship you have with a breeder. Tategoi can leave as well.
      Last edited by Russell Peters; 02-18-2015 at 09:52 AM.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    14. #54
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ALLKOI-DUP View Post
      Shoot, on taking another look at the hariwake, I do see the orange coming through on the left shoulder and right side a little further back than mid of dorsal. but the toncho I don't see at all.
      The Beni is already breaking down. It is not good quality Beni at all. The question is, how much will be left?
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      Last edited by Russell Peters; 02-18-2015 at 09:43 AM.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    15. #55
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      Quote Originally Posted by Rufretic View Post
      This clears a lot up. I did not realize that good quality Beni and skin would make the value go up more than conformation. This is probably why I am having such a hard time finding a goshiki I like anywhere near my price range. I'm looking for that quality color and skin that looks good to me so I guess I should give up on that one. Other types I don't notice the color and skin quality as much so I'm still happy with less quality in that department if the pattern looks good in my eyes.



      That's not what I meant to say. I am saying that good quality Beni comes with good quality skin otherwise you would not be able to tell. A Koi with good quality skin and Beni is still worth more than a Koi that does not have it, even if it has bad conformation but that does not mean it would be more than a Koi with good Beni and skin and excellent conformation.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    16. #56
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      The Beni is already breaking down. It is not good quality Beni at all. The question is, how much will be left?
      Your arrow work is absolutely fabulous, petunia...
      -Rain

      :I CAN'T BRING THIS SHIP INTO TRTUGA ALL BY ME ONESIES, SAVVY?:

    17. #57
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by rainblood View Post
      Your arrow work is absolutely fabulous, petunia...
      I can not afford the same photo shop software that you can.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    18. #58
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      I can not afford the same photo shop software that you can.
      Dude, that really hurt
      -Rain

      :I CAN'T BRING THIS SHIP INTO TRTUGA ALL BY ME ONESIES, SAVVY?:

    19. #59
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by rainblood View Post
      Dude, that really hurt

      The truth always hurts...
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    20. #60
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      Russ Why you waiting your time. If anyone who want to learn to see deference with any amount $$--$$$$ the will love what there pay for time. There will learn easy or hard way.

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