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  • Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
    Results 41 to 59 of 59

    Thread: Firestone EPDM Liner Leaking

    1. #41
      koiman1950's Avatar
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      None. Just quick flinches to push the panic/blame button. Too much of this linch mob mentality these days, thanks to the internet~!
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net




      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    2. #42
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      I don't know, reading all the history and it seems you pay $1k for "pond guard" with a 25 year guarantee and find out a large percentage (1 to 10% ?) of the liners fail in 1/4 of that time due to a insect damage, it doesn't sound like a lynch mob mentality to me. The ponds are for fish and insects and are buried in the dirt where every insect possible can work on it. Guarantee for 6 years and see what happens to sales.

    3. #43
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      First of all, not all liners cost a grand! Secondly, I seriously doubt that 25% have damage from insects. Maybe .25% would be more in order. Do you realize how many liner ponds are installed annually, especially by the Aquascape type landscapers? I have a liner qtank that is 1250 gallons, and is mostly in the dirt and has been there since 1997. No leaks or bug problems and neither have ANY of the liner ponds we've either ripped out, serviced or modified. I think it is a geographical issue, and yes, like many things nowadays, people are great at pointing fingers without both sides of the story or all the facts. That's unfortunately just the way it is these days.
      Mike

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    4. #44
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      If it is only 0.25% of the liners fail, why wouldn't the supplier stand behind them? Just good business to do so. The history here doesn't indicate that. I said if 1% to 10% fail in 6 years, not 25%.

    5. #45
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      I have seen insect damage to both liners and flexable PVC pipe. Fortunately not a common occurrence.
      Attached Images Attached Images  
      Last edited by BWG; 09-06-2017 at 01:13 AM.

    6. #46
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      Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
      If it is only 0.25% of the liners fail, why wouldn't the supplier stand behind them? Just good business to do so. The history here doesn't indicate that. I said if 1% to 10% fail in 6 years, not 25%.
      The bottom line is that the problem is not covered under warranty. While we may think they should do something, they're certainly under no obligation. If they did, it would open them up to all kinds of non-warranty claimants crying foul. I do stand corrected as when I was typing my earlier post, I re-looked at your statement and saw the wording 1/4 and took it from there. My apologies. However, I can only imagine what even .25% of their total sales would equate to. They can't control everything in life just because they actually do make a good product.
      Mike

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      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    7. #47
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      Adding on to what Mike said, I'm sure the mfg can make the liner bug-proof by adding some ingredient... that's also toxic to fish. I wonder if the bugs actually consume the liner, or whether they're simply digging out a trench for their home. If it's the latter, even a poisoned liner wouldn't prevent this. They could probably add something else to make the liner tougher, then buyers will complain the liner doesn't bend/fold/crease as easily as it should. Pretty much a no-win for them and about all we can do is accurately identify the pests and treat the water to kill them.

    8. #48
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      So......in addition to the raccoons dismantling my filters, the herons trying catch a meal, oppressive levels of algae, and all the other well-established issues associated with having a pond, I can now also look forward to.......(*drum roll*)........liner-eating insect larvae!

      Sometimes, nature can be a real *****.

    9. #49
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      And don't forget, having a koi pond is very relaxing.

    10. #50
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      Those damage is clearly made by a bug (probably bloodworm) and so isnt warranty. They could give a free liner but than they would assume that was liner fault when it isnt. Its like you build a concrete pond and than happen a earthquake and you go complain about that company that the pond shouldnt crack even with a earthquake...


      About people say that a large percentage of ponds with EPDM are destroyed by this bugs is just nosense. Do you even know how many EPDM ponds are build every year just in US? Its your job to see the pros and cons of each material and decided what it the best for you.
      Last edited by possant; 09-08-2017 at 06:20 AM.

    11. #51
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      Agree this is a bug problem. I have just found exactly the same markings in my pond, ALL below the waterline. A large number have pierced the liner and I have a big leakage problem.

      Interesting that one of my pump cables has the same and even more severe erosion, but another has no erosion at all. Must depend on the rubber recipe!

    12. #52
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      I know this is an old thread but this is a timely topic for me.
      I'm building my pond right now and considering the type of liner to get. I will need roughly 15 feet X 20 feet. I have the choice between EPDM or "HDRPE". [link here]
      The HDRPE is still thick but has a webbing inside it. Very tough stuff.
      Any opinions on which I should use? The price is similar, I think.

    13. #53
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      Quote Originally Posted by two_wheeled View Post
      I know this is an old thread but this is a timely topic for me.
      I'm building my pond right now and considering the type of liner to get. I will need roughly 15 feet X 20 feet. I have the choice between EPDM or "HDRPE". [link here]
      The HDRPE is still thick but has a webbing inside it. Very tough stuff.
      Any opinions on which I should use? The price is similar, I think.
      Hi, I've been happy with my butyl liner for 12 years until this problem. It seemed to follow losing all our fish last year (we think to an otter) so maybe the bugs have always been there but the fish kept them in check.

      I too am looking at a replacement and I'm tempted by the HDRPE liners. Instinct tells me that nothing will be interested in eating HDPE. I will probably just lay over the existing liner.

      If you can afford it why not try EPDM as a base with HDRPE on top? That way you'll have a tried and tested water-tight pond with - only my opinion - protection from rubber eating bugs.

    14. #54
      two_wheeled is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Grebe View Post
      If you can afford it why not try EPDM as a base with HDRPE on top?
      2 liners would be overkill and a real problem to seal against plumbing, and no I can't afford it anyway.
      I think the HDRPE would make a great underlayment, since it appears to be very puncture-resistant. I used some of this to build my mom a small 2X2X2 patio water feature. It was the thin stuff from Home Depot.

    15. #55
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      For anyone following up on this, I just drained my pond to fit a new liner. All the 'erosion' marks are from water level down to about 2ft below. No sign of activity below that, although something else has chomped in a few places at the folds (photo attached). Also attached photo of erosion on pump cable.
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    16. #56
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      Any updates to control of these critters

    17. #57
      batman is offline Senior Member
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      This problem has been documented multiple times through the years. Appears to be caused by more than one insect type. Flex PVC can also experience insect holes usually from the outside tunneling in. Some suggested PP or other parasite treatments as a pond liner prevention. Don't recall anyone ever posting followup data on treatment details, intervals used and if successful. I wonder if other liner types such as PE are resistant.
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    18. #58
      Paul Sabucchi's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by batman View Post
      I wonder if other liner types such as PE are resistant.
      Was wondering the same myself, also is HDPE more tricky to fit with bottom drains, skimmers and returns due to its relative reluctance towards adhesives?
      46000 liters with only wetland filtration

    19. #59
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      Personally I think it's a real problem that isn't widespread. Appears to occur more in shallow water layer with growth on liner. Also appears to be more prevalent by where you live. Tracked to a larvae from a particular fly with aquatic larvae but there are reports of other larvae types causing damage. Several reports inside liner folds protected from fish had increased damage. Unfortunately most it happens to shut down the pond and no followup. Firestone will point fingers to insect damage but no recommendations. In my area I've only seen it in neglected water gardens. I've not heard of insect damage on EPDM roofs but living green roof builders using EPDM recommend periodic insect control. It's also standard maintenance practice to not let organic material build up on standard EPDM roofs because of insects.

      Perhaps PP use to kill the larva and knock down the habitat a little timed to season hatch? Timed seasonal parasite treatment?

      For the PE drain question - No experience installing a large drain in PE but have installed several small drains in PE hydroponic setups. The clamping action of the drain holds it in place and the sealant is a good gasket preventing leaks.
      Last edited by batman; 01-19-2022 at 11:08 AM.
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