• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
    Results 21 to 40 of 59

    Thread: Firestone EPDM Liner Leaking

    1. #21
      KoiDan's Avatar
      KoiDan is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2011
      Location
      Austin, Texas
      Posts
      564
      Here is a picture of mine. Look familiar? Inconsistent thickness, brittle and all those future holes! Never again!
      Name:  IMG_1410.jpg
Views: 456
Size:  150.4 KB

    2. #22
      Jetmek's Avatar
      Jetmek is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2014
      Location
      Bouse, AZ USA
      Posts
      224
      I've now have a 15 ft by 25 foot Firestone liner for sale. Thanks for the info. !!! Would have been a big mistake for a Az pond.
      Doug


      " If a cluttered desk is sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then is an empty desk a sign?"
      Albert Einstein

    3. #23
      Appliance Guy's Avatar
      Appliance Guy is offline Senior Member
      is Just chillin with koi...
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2011
      Location
      Pensacola, FL
      Posts
      1,091
      Quote Originally Posted by KoiDan View Post
      Here is a picture of mine. Look familiar? Inconsistent thickness, brittle and all those future holes! Never again!
      Wow Dan, that's crazy. Well, I guess it really wasn't anything you did. Best of luck on your rebuild.
      Tim can always be reached at 850-380-7824 or timnye850@gmail.com

    4. #24
      BWG is offline Senior Member
      is 999875421235621456478541.1
       
      Feeling:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Location
      ZONE 5
      Posts
      3,514
      This is absolutely not related to UV aging of EPDM rubber. Something else in your pond environment is causing this.

    5. #25
      KoiDan's Avatar
      KoiDan is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2011
      Location
      Austin, Texas
      Posts
      564
      What could cause this?
      Outside agents?
      Food
      ClorAm-x
      Koiclay
      Underlayment?
      Water PH
      P&L Sealant
      Pond temp
      Acid rain, the lochness monster...lol, I can't think of what would cause this.

    6. #26
      BWG is offline Senior Member
      is 999875421235621456478541.1
       
      Feeling:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Location
      ZONE 5
      Posts
      3,514
      To me looks like some type of bug tracks.

      I have inspected many EPDM rubber roofs on facility maintenance inspections and old rubber looks like the cracking and texture you see on old car tires.

      Stress fractures in plastic and rubber due to stretching or compression forces will always develop patterns. This is very random.
      Last edited by BWG; 06-05-2015 at 12:16 PM.

    7. #27
      KoiDan's Avatar
      KoiDan is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2011
      Location
      Austin, Texas
      Posts
      564
      I don't know anything about how they make the liner, but it looks like they poured a bunch of rubber pallets in a vat, under cooked them, partially flattened them out into liner material and found a way to make a very smooth thin surface area.....I am very pessimistic by nature and can't believe there are rubber eating bugs. Let's say there are....Does AZ have the same rubber eating bugs as Texas? This seems like a manufacturing flaw that Firestone will never admit to. Maybe they found a way to recycle old tires, or tire remnants to make liners. Maybe they were looking for a rubber compound that when formed, made a tire with built in traction. Didn't work with tires so they used it in their liner division? I think it is a shame that after four years of use, I am having to rebuild my pond due to it failing.

    8. #28
      koiman1950's Avatar
      koiman1950 is offline Supporting Member
      is semi retired
       
      Feeling:
      Tired
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2008
      Location
      San Jose, Ca
      Posts
      19,484
      With as many ponds built across the entire country that have been constructed with EPDM PondGuard liner from Firestone, I would consider the recent complaints here miniscule to the overall use of this product. However, I too would be concerned if this happened to me. I've NEVER heard of aquatic bugs that could/would eat rubber like this, but obviously, there's something going on as these appear to be very deliberate slit type penetrations of some sort.

      As to the company's fault here, someone else posted this same type of issue, complained, sent in a sample to Firestone and they replaced the liner. So, while they may not publicly admit they have an issue, they do seem to take care of complaints with good customer service/support. Whether we will ever get a factual answer to this issue is doubtful, but you can bet they'll lose a ton of money on this product if things continue in this direction and more issues of a like kind start to rear their ugly head!
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net




      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    9. #29
      BWG is offline Senior Member
      is 999875421235621456478541.1
       
      Feeling:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Location
      ZONE 5
      Posts
      3,514
      I agree, complain and put some pressure on Firestone for analysis and free replacement. Very strange looking marks. I wouldn't think it was insect either but after seeing flex PVC with insect holes it might be possible. I would think Firestone would be very interested in your situation. I have seen issues with the Chinese import EPDM roofing but never have seen an issue with Firestone roofing or pond liner.

    10. #30
      koiman1950's Avatar
      koiman1950 is offline Supporting Member
      is semi retired
       
      Feeling:
      Tired
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2008
      Location
      San Jose, Ca
      Posts
      19,484
      PVC flex pipe and rubber liner are composed of much different compounds/components. I don't think you can compare them, in contact with the ground to each other.
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net




      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    11. #31
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Southeast Virginia
      Posts
      3,020
      "I installed the Firestone 45 mil EPDM liner in the pond 6 years ago. I completely drained the pond a few days ago for the first time so we could have some flagstone work done around the sides (and give me an opportunity to completly clean everything out)."

      I find it interesting that you have had this liner for 6 years and it only started to leak after draining it a few days ago for flagstone work and refilling it.

      Did you pressure wash the liner?

      Could it have been something that was done to it when the flagstone work was done?
      Nancy



    12. #32
      RichToyBox's Avatar
      RichToyBox is offline Administrator
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Sandston, VA
      Posts
      14,647
      I had the opportunity to go to a rubber manufacturer in the 80's. What they were making for me were Neoprene bearings for bridges. Until I went and had the opportunity to see the process, I thought that the manufacturing was a much larger process than it is. It is highly tested for properties of each batch. A batch surprisingly is small, that plant the batch size was 200 pounds. The mix was to use 2 bags of pure polymer, and put that in a wash tub, then add a plasticiser oil, a scoop of carbon black, and a pinch of some magic ingredient. Very crude measuring. The largest Banbury mixers are about 800 pounds. Form the Banbury, the material is dumped into a pair of rollers, and lifted back to the top and and run through the rollers a few times to assure complete mixing of that batch. The batches are stored during testing and then pulled out to make product. What that translates to is that almost every truck tire is a different batch, but what happens is the batches are blended with other batches in an extrusion process using the strongest and weakest, most uv resistant and poorest uv resistant and several in the middle to blend a super batch for extrusion of extrudible products, or forinjction molding, or for my bearings, the layers, about 1/8 inch thick were layered to incorporate many batches and then when vulcanized, the properties blended to make a pretty consistent end product. For the sheet product, though I didn't see it being made, I would suspect several dozen batches would be brought out to the rollers and essentially braided together as they went into the rollers with sufficient product to make a 5 foot ribbon come out the end. That would then continue through the oven for vulcanization. The 5 foot widths are then factory seemed to give the 10 foot, 15 foot, 20 foot, 25 foot, etc. widths.


      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    13. #33
      Appliance Guy's Avatar
      Appliance Guy is offline Senior Member
      is Just chillin with koi...
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2011
      Location
      Pensacola, FL
      Posts
      1,091
      It's not bugs, it's the jackalope that is causing this.

      Name:  jackalope.jpg
Views: 377
Size:  214.2 KB
      Tim can always be reached at 850-380-7824 or timnye850@gmail.com

    14. #34
      BWG is offline Senior Member
      is 999875421235621456478541.1
       
      Feeling:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Location
      ZONE 5
      Posts
      3,514
      .
      Attached Images Attached Images  

    15. #35
      stevenk is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Location
      roswell ga
      Posts
      1
      Quote Originally Posted by KoiDan View Post
      Here is a picture of mine. Look familiar? Inconsistent thickness, brittle and all those future holes! Never again!
      Name:  IMG_1410.jpg
Views: 456
Size:  150.4 KB

      The picture and problem you described is identical to my pond. A Firestone representative claimed it was caused by insects and deny my claims for warranty (see email below). I am not convinced that the damage is caused by insects. There's just too many holes. My always hungry kois would eat those appetizers up as quickly as they could reproduced. To me, the chewed up holes appear to be some sort of rubber fillers that have failed. Or may be the additives like plasticizer failed.

      email from Firestone...

      ....In the past we have seen similar damage to that in these photos on the top surface of the rubber membrane and after researching the cause, we discovered the damage is due insects known Midges. I believe it is the aquatic larval stage of the Midge that does the damage. Based on our limited knowledge of the Midge insects we typically see the Midges borrowing partway through the membrane forming etching or grooves. They typically etch or form groove on the surface of rubber membrane. I suppose that if the membrane is flexed or stressed in any way these etched membranes could form cracks at the bottom of the etching or grooves where the membrane is thinnest. Midge damage is odd in that we have seen nearly identical ponds close together where one is attacked by Midges and another is not?

      The bottom line is that this is insect damage and therefore it not warranted. We do not know of any way to prevent Midge damage, I will ask around for a method that for a method of Midge control that could be implemented with Koi or other aquatic life in the pond. However, I hold little hope that such a control method exists.

      Note; when grooved or etched a damage is on the bottom side of the side of the membrane and the grooves have perforations or holes all the way through the membrane along the grooves - that is representative of termite damage.

      So Midges can attack the top side and termites the bottom side of a rubber membrane


      William A. "Bill" Johnson CGCS
      Field Technical Engineer
      Firestone Specialty Products Company
      250 West 96th Street
      Indianapolis, IN 46260
      johnsonbill [at] firestonesp.com
      Attached Images Attached Images

    16. #36
      ttankofish1's Avatar
      ttankofish1 is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Location
      Rockland county,NY
      Posts
      351
      Is there anything that could be done to prevent termite damage? I have seen termites around and now I am getting nervous.


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    17. #37
      cindy's Avatar
      cindy is offline Supporting Member
      is has 2 new tosai
       
      Feeling:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Mt. Wash. KY - 7 miles outside Louisville
      Posts
      64,773
      Quote Originally Posted by stevenk View Post
      The picture and problem you described is identical to my pond. A Firestone representative claimed it was caused by insects and deny my claims for warranty (see email below). I am not convinced that the damage is caused by insects. There's just too many holes. My always hungry kois would eat those appetizers up as quickly as they could reproduced. To me, the chewed up holes appear to be some sort of rubber fillers that have failed. Or may be the additives like plasticizer failed.

      email from Firestone...

      ....In the past we have seen similar damage to that in these photos on the top surface of the rubber membrane and after researching the cause, we discovered the damage is due insects known Midges. I believe it is the aquatic larval stage of the Midge that does the damage. Based on our limited knowledge of the Midge insects we typically see the Midges borrowing partway through the membrane forming etching or grooves. They typically etch or form groove on the surface of rubber membrane. I suppose that if the membrane is flexed or stressed in any way these etched membranes could form cracks at the bottom of the etching or grooves where the membrane is thinnest. Midge damage is odd in that we have seen nearly identical ponds close together where one is attacked by Midges and another is not?

      The bottom line is that this is insect damage and therefore it not warranted. We do not know of any way to prevent Midge damage, I will ask around for a method that for a method of Midge control that could be implemented with Koi or other aquatic life in the pond. However, I hold little hope that such a control method exists.

      Note; when grooved or etched a damage is on the bottom side of the side of the membrane and the grooves have perforations or holes all the way through the membrane along the grooves - that is representative of termite damage.

      So Midges can attack the top side and termites the bottom side of a rubber membrane


      William A. "Bill" Johnson CGCS
      Field Technical Engineer
      Firestone Specialty Products Company
      250 West 96th Street
      Indianapolis, IN 46260
      johnsonbill [at] firestonesp.com
      So using Firestone pond liners isn't an option because of midges?

    18. #38
      koiman1950's Avatar
      koiman1950 is offline Supporting Member
      is semi retired
       
      Feeling:
      Tired
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2008
      Location
      San Jose, Ca
      Posts
      19,484
      These "bugs" were actually found to be some other insect's larval stage. Although the "company line" that was provided by Firestone stated "midge fly larva" that's not what a lab found them to be. I wish someone could locate the thread that actually showed the lab info along with actual pictures of the culprits involved.
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net




      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    19. #39
      icu2's Avatar
      icu2 is online now Administrator ~ WWKC President
      ~ WWKC Treasurer
      is sorry otters exist
       
      Feeling:
      Annoyed
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2007
      Location
      Poulsbo, WA
      Posts
      33,998
      Not sure if this is what you remember Mike but in the other thread I linked to the op clients had an entomologist identify
      the creature... here's the posts of what they found:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...86#post2565586

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...44#post2566044

      I don't remember ever seeing a complaint on the west coast so maybe this water moth is only in certain areas?
      --Steve
      ..WWKC Treasurer


    20. #40
      kimini is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2007
      Location
      SoCal
      Posts
      1,697
      So it's all in the southeast? These earlier threads got a little hot, people demanding that Firestone refund money for obviously "defective" liners, yet here we are, thinking that maybe it really is a bug? I wonder how many of those with the pitchforks and torches are going to apologize to Firestone...
      Last edited by kimini; 09-05-2017 at 06:41 PM.

    Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •