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    Thread: Firestone EPDM Liner Leaking

    1. #1
      3volution is offline Junior Member
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      Firestone EPDM Liner Leaking

      Hi all! First post!

      I installed the Firestone 45 mil EPDM liner in the pond 6 years ago. I completely drained the pond a few days ago for the first time so we could have some flagstone work done around the sides (and give me an opportunity to completly clean everything out).

      When I went to refill, it was leaking like a siv! It drained down apprx. 2.5 feet to a certain point so I knew where to look. Upon close inspection, the entire liner has some sort of etched pattern. It's so uniform that I initially thought it came that way from the manufacturer. It's hard to explain, but they look like small 3mm grooves. The point of leakage is several spots where the liner is folded and the grooves are at the top of the folds.

      Firestone is refusing warranty coverage because they are claiming it was caused from midges.

      We're in AZ and I've never heard of midges.

      Does anyone ahve any ideas what could have caused this?

    2. #2
      jon is offline Senior Member
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      Midges*as a group include many kinds of small*flies; seasonally or otherwise practically every land area outside permanently arid deserts and the frigid zones, harbours some species. The term "midge" does not define any particular taxonomic group, but includes species in several*families*of*Nematoceran*Diptera. Some midges, such as many*Phlebotominae*(sand fly) and*Simuliidae(black fly), are vectors of various diseases. Many others play useful roles as prey items for*insectivores, such as various*frogs*and*swallows. Others are important as*detritivores, participating in various*nutrient cycles. The habits of midges vary greatly from species to species, though within any particular family midges commonly have similar ecological roles.



      Dont see how the could do it



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    3. #3
      Joey S's Avatar
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      Midges??? Really??? I can't imagine they could damage a liner. The only thing I can think of from your description might be a welded seam in the liner. I know I was a bit p'od when I was trying to make my folds near a welded seam. I also found a couple or three pin holes in my liner when it was installed. No big deal and were sealed with a little PL goop. But what if I hadn't noticed the holes?

      Got a pic? That would help.
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    4. #4
      KoiKid55 is offline Senior Member
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      firestone is like this they will pull evrything and anything to aviod giving you a new liner theres no way in hell that midges will get through 45mil epdm liner I stood on my liner susspened and it held me I way 170 puonds I cant belive that a midge will cause it to leak
      Well I messed that one up
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    5. #5
      3volution is offline Junior Member
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      I completely agree. It's actually insulting the way Firestone is handling this. One guy said he's "99.8% sure it's caused by ants". They want us to cut out a sample and send it in to them. This isnt feasible as the liner would be unrepairable in the event they dont cover it.

      Here's a few pictures:

      Edit No.1: Having issues linking to dropbox, so I attached them.
      Edit No.2: The top picture is of the wall, about a foot down from the top. The second is from a step that's about 2.5' deep.
      Attached Images Attached Images   
      Last edited by 3volution; 05-16-2013 at 12:03 PM.

    6. #6
      Pond,James_Pond's Avatar
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      Wow, that is really bizarre. I'm very curious to know what is the cause.

      steve

    7. #7
      KoiKid55 is offline Senior Member
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      now trying to be a stalker but where do you live do you have animals such as racoons bobcats or birds with claws? or how bout kids could they have been playing around the pond? how about raocks ever noticed some are out of place maybe fallen in my thinking righ now it was some type of clawed animal if you dont have any near you then I think that it is prob a manfacture thing from firestone. the photo how far down are these scrathces if there at the bottom theres now way any animal nor bug can scratch it tell firestone this
      Well I messed that one up
      BULKHEAD Y U NO WORK



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    8. #8
      3volution is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiKid55 View Post
      now trying to be a stalker but where do you live do you have animals such as racoons bobcats or birds with claws? or how bout kids could they have been playing around the pond? how about raocks ever noticed some are out of place maybe fallen in my thinking righ now it was some type of clawed animal if you dont have any near you then I think that it is prob a manfacture thing from firestone. the photo how far down are these scrathces if there at the bottom theres now way any animal nor bug can scratch it tell firestone this
      We're in Phoenix. We were thinking that too, but with the uniformity of the marks, it almost seems impossible, especially, as it's also on the sides (first picture), which is verticle. The second picture is approx. 2.5' down on a step. Every once in a while we'll see a Herron in the pond.

    9. #9
      jon is offline Senior Member
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      Heron toe nails?



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    10. #10
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      What does the "dirt" side of the liner look like? I find it hard to believe that ants or flies caused this. However it is standard practice for a manufacturer to request a sample of their product that you are asking to be warranted. Since you already have holes in it and it will have to be patched at the very least. Give them what they ask for.

      When I lived in AZ. there was a particular bacteria that could be found along I-10 that was eating the rubber from tire blow-outs/flats. Maybe there is something there. But again I find it hard to believe with all the Firestone lined ponds in Phoenix much less the entire southwestern US, Much less the Firestone roofing on all those warehouses. They picked your pond to eat the rubber. Much less after 6 years of service.

      Good luck dealing with the giant.

    11. #11
      KoiKid55 is offline Senior Member
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      well if you are going to have to patch it whts the heart of sending them a sample if it is also more than 1 sq ft of the liner that has holes patching isnt really an option it is just to big of an area so you might have to just buy a new liner any ways now for the bacteria I understand that bateria can colinize in the millions but 45 mil rubber than meat to have rocks gravle filters pump fish animals and whaterver else on it gets damged by bacteria I would love to see firestones next awnser keep trying though
      Well I messed that one up
      BULKHEAD Y U NO WORK



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    12. #12
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      I have the same problem check this link https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...Not&highlight=

      My conclusion is you didnt have any luck, you got a faulty liner. Firestone gave me a new one without any questions after they tested a sample.

    13. #13
      3volution is offline Junior Member
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      Axton,

      This is great news. Sorry about your issue, but I am happy i'm not alone. I'm going to send in a sample soon. I noticed that you dealt with your dealer. Ours (AZ Ponds) is telling us to deal with Firestone directly.

      I have family coming in town this week so I had to get he pond filled back up and fish back in so I could get the kiddie pool off my pool deck. I'm hoping the algae will bloom quicky and help seal it up in the meantime. After family leaves, I plan to grab a sample and send it in. My wife and I are thinking of avoiding the liner route and going with concrete this time around.

      We'll see what Firestone has to say and go from there

    14. #14
      epse30 is offline Senior Member
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      Firestone's Response?

      Hi 3vo,
      Do you have an update?
      10 years ago, I was told, by a long time pro in the pond business in Georgia, that they did not use flexible PVC pipe underground intheir area. It would end up leaking. Insects (termites or ants, I forget) ate the plasticizers.
      I wonder if this isn't a similar situation.Those holes are really weird looking. I hope it is a manufacturing defect.

      Sorry for you difficulties.
      Regards, Eric

    15. #15
      Rick Thorpe is offline Junior Member
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      EPDM liner failure

      Quote Originally Posted by 3volution View Post
      Hi all! First post!

      I installed the Firestone 45 mil EPDM liner in the pond 6 years ago. I completely drained the pond a few days ago for the first time so we could have some flagstone work done around the sides (and give me an opportunity to completly clean everything out).

      When I went to refill, it was leaking like a siv! It drained down apprx. 2.5 feet to a certain point so I knew where to look. Upon close inspection, the entire liner has some sort of etched pattern. It's so uniform that I initially thought it came that way from the manufacturer. It's hard to explain, but they look like small 3mm grooves. The point of leakage is several spots where the liner is folded and the grooves are at the top of the folds.

      Firestone is refusing warranty coverage because they are claiming it was caused from midges.

      We're in AZ and I've never heard of midges.

      Does anyone ahve any ideas what could have caused this?
      We live in New Zealand and have a Firestone EPDM liner which is 18 months old. Last summer as the pond level droped it was obvious the liner had numerous holes along the top edges of folds. The holes have numerous grooves around the edge and there are a lot more grooves cut into the liner right across the fold. There are no holes anywhere else on the liner. The water supply is straight off our roof and the pond has no connection to a natural water way. The only insects in the pond are air born insects and tadpoles from a bell frog. We use the water for an irrigation tank for our gardens. I have many photos of the damage. Happy to share them with anyone. Can 3volution contact me or anyone else who has had a similar experience? regards rick

    16. #16
      KoiDan's Avatar
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      I am glad you started this as I have similar issues as well. I will add pictures later tonight so you can see. My pond is currently empty and not going with Firestone Liner ever again! This is the second pond liner gone bad.

    17. #17
      TX_Koi is offline Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiDan View Post
      I am glad you started this as I have similar issues as well. I will add pictures later tonight so you can see. My pond is currently empty and not going with Firestone Liner ever again! This is the second pond liner gone bad.
      Guess I won't be going with a Firestone liner.

    18. #18
      BWG is offline Senior Member
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      I have seen insect holes in flexible PVC pipe but didn't realize EPDM rubber had similar problems.

      I think that Charles Darwin once stated that "Rubber eating insects will inherent the earth".

    19. #19
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      I'm not buying into it being bugs at all. I think the material becomes brittle (faster than 25 years)and when being stretched at all it wants to pull apart.

    20. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiDan View Post
      I'm not buying into it being bugs at all. I think the material becomes brittle (faster than 25 years)and when being stretched at all it wants to pull apart.
      Good supposition Dan. I think you're definitely on to something here!
      Mike

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